Email: Sweet and Sour
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
Email, Indexed by DATE
New on 3/29/99:
Your letters are always great to read! Thanks again for sharing your views.
The way you put it makes the Holy Days, candy sales, plaque sales, etc., etc. sound oppressive. And getting the cheapest hamburger at McDonald's because you would be home in 2 hours. I know what you mean. I don't know what to say. It was all draining. My husband and I tend to be pretty energetic people and we were able to squeeze out a life of our own WHILE he was in Graduate Club, and we attended Bible Study and were YOU and YES teachers, and he was the video man, the song leader, the prayer guy, the tape man, the basketball guy, the softball sponsor, the fundraiser guy, the YOU coordinator, and so on.
For what it's worth, the reason we were able to have fun with it was because we didn't let "them" squeeze the joy out of life. We would park a mile away from church and enjoy a nice hour long walk through the park and historic neighborhood near church on the Sabbath. We would always carry lots of snacks and play clothes for our 5 kids and go to Lake Michigan and play before, after or between those mega double service days. We would take a van load of YOUers to shoot pool or go to Chuckie Cheese or to a hot tub and expose them all to things other than the church. We saw at the time that it was unbalanced. Some stodgy "second generationers" didn't seem comfortable seeing their kids having the fun they might not have had.
I understand about looking back on it as maybe the fleck of fun one might have had in prison and not wanting to go back to it all. I'm just rambling a bit, but we didn't look at the Feast as our vacation. My husband had a business trip every year and we would tag along (still eating sandwiches in the car) and always try to combine fun with whatever life presented. We would invite a houseful of "brethren" to our cabin at the Dells and get the grill out and just have fun with everyone.
The people were alright, you know. They were the real treasure. Many were open to freedom, love, emotion, to God and the message we were hearing that we had access to Him ourselves. It showed in them that they were open to all of that. I'm sure you see that in the letters you receive (an emotional innocence.) Some haven't been seared by it all. I don't know. I just see that there is a potential for joy with some of it.
Thanks for sharing the story about your wife and the woman she met in the store. It is interesting to hear about where some of us have ended up. I do have a sense of sadness to think of everyone and how they are all dealing with it. That is why your site is such a service. It gives everyone a sort of "campfire," a place to huddle and be warmed emotionally. To tend our wounds together. It is all very sad. Thank you again for your obvious love and concern for the "broken family."
PS Your comment about the gentleman who only wanted to hire "Christians" makes me chuckle. What do people think being a Christian means?! I think you or someone at your site hit the nail on the head with the comment that it all gets down to "power and money." What a powerful pull that has on people.
Take very good care and my best to you and your family,
PSS I am curious if you don't mind sharing. How many people do you enlighten and has it sped up or slowed down lately and what are the 5 or so most common responses?
I don't really know how many people may benefit from the PT. I think a lot of it has to be absorbed slowly by those that are just learning "The Truth". The "Satanic Seed of Doubt" is planted and people may storm off all in a huff and then come sneaking back after awhile. To try to accept it all at once is just too much for most people to do. It was/is their life. They just can't throw out all they have ever believed with all their hearts just because they read it on the internet. And especially so since Jr. and his gang have thoroughly trashed the internet in sermons, saying you can't believe anything on the internet. Thier problems may increase in the future as the internet enters more and more homes and people are able to access the information and decide for themselves what the truth is.
Jr. will keep playing his little religion game with the wcg until it doesn't pay anymore and then he will move on with his Plain Truth Ministries, generously funded by the sales of Big Sandy and Pasadena campus'. As long as there is money coming in from wcg, why stop it? As the money goes down, all he has to do is fire more full time ministers and anoint the lay-members who are looking for recognition and a little power themselves.
Most visitors do not email me. I used to keep track of how many people would visit the site each day/ each week, but now I really don't care. There are counters on the pages and it seems like a new page may get about 40-80 hits the first day it is up. Lately it has been nice to see those that left the church or were kicked out years ago are able to deal with their feelings about the past better because of some of the material on the site.
I thought things may slack off some when I let it be known that I am no longer Christian and started to promote the anti-religion and anti-bible articles, NOT ANTI-God, but it doesn't seem to have stopped the email that I have gotten. I had just reached a point where I didn't care if people refused to read the PT if they thought that I would have a lower standard of truth than a Christian. One guy even wrote to me and said that I would be able to "help" more people if I would be more "smooth" in my presentation. Sorry, I've had enough of slick people in the last 28 years. Not selling anything. The information is there for anyone that wants it and can accept it. If they want slick salespeople, they can stick with religion.
The PT will keep going as long as possible, and it is on a Free site so that could be a long time. Others will have to do the writing though, and they are, because I have written all I have to say, at least at this time.
Thank you so much for all you info on these web sites about herbert and the wcg. I left the church around 1981 when I didn't see any love or kindness in the ministers, but only sternness and controlling attitudes.
I have often wondered what happened to the church in Pasadena and gta. About 2 years. after I left, my younger son was killed in an accident, and I had guilt feelings that god was punishing me. Of course when I called my ex church friends for support all I got was shunning. Real Christian of them?
This info about hwa and his daughter is disgusting news and I really feel like a dope following those teachings now.
Thanks again I think this new info will lift the guilt feelings I have been carrying around all these years.
My name is Dan (name withheld). I attended the Worldwide Church of God for 30+ years until about 3 years ago. Since then I have read more inspiring stuff from sources outside the "church" than during all those years combined listening to and reading the indoctrination of the leaders of that group.
I was just going through some old emails that I had not read and found a letter from God! Right on!! Keep up the encouragement!!
I read all of the new stuff on the site, and I was moved to think a lot about why I would call myself a Christian. I would say that I am a follower of Christ. But, unlike most Christians that leave a bad taste in my mouth, I don't demand that everyone draw the same conclusions as I do. I think that that is treachery and a way to control people.
I believe that your respect for the truth and your willingness to present it at all costs gives me a great deal of hope. I just wanted to clarify that with you...I hope that I didn't make you feel as if I were trying to convert you. (You were right...I get a lot of mail from folks trying to convert me...not to mention people who knew me when who refuse to leave an abusive system. It is sad.)
Just wanted to encourage you. The work that you do has changed my life forever. A million thank-you's.
No, didn't think anything negative from your posts.
It does require a little spiritual introspection to decide what you really believe/are. It was all just being logical for me. One step led to another. "If I don't believe in 'X', then I can't believe in 'Y,' because 'Y' is founded on 'X' and there is no other proof for it other than 'X' and the feeling that I WANT to believe 'Y'." Things like that. My wife finally had to do the same thing because I would question her saying something because it didn't fit in with something else she said she believed.
It is very freeing to be able to sort out what your beliefs are without the influence of religious salesmen. They, of course, would want us to need them to help us.
Your web site is very offensive to many people. You make terrible gestures to people, and blame everyone but yourself for your pathetic little life. You should be ashamed of yourself (but I know you are not).
I have been asked to help out. So I am asking that you please stop this nonsense.
This is the type of trash you publish:
"I submit that "you" are the sick son of a bitch, and I also submit that you should perhaps stick to what you know, because you are *way* out of your league here. Stick with your plaid-suited prophesying single couldn't-get-a-woman-if-they-paid-them cronies and let us get on with our lives without fleas like you biting us. Russell "
Who is out of their league? I think bunch of tired, bitter old men are.
Offending people this way leads only to trouble.
I know you will make a stupid joke about this too, but those that care about you wish you would stop. I don't care one way or another, I'm a third party.
The irony of "Navy's" letter is just too much for me. I was in the Navy and I can tell you that there was a lot more going on there that could be considered rude, vulgar, and offensive than your website even hints at.
Navy takes one comment out of context and states that your whole website reflects that comment. How myopic could someone be? He would do well to check out the other hundreds of postings you have. He would also do well to check out the real trash on other people's websites.
If it weren't for the Worldwide Church of God and its pundits taking advantage of unsuspecting people with their Constitutional right to freedom of religion, some of us might not have to exercise our own right to freedom of speech and freedom of the press as often as we do.
Navy, you're making much ado about nothing. Shame on you! Stay out of other peoples' business. When those other people who "care about Ed" get some guts of their own, maybe they can muster up the courage to comment. They don't have to send in the Navy.
From someone who really does care.
Where in your opinion is God's church? The Holy Days are approaching and we are not attending any church right now?
Please respond Thank you Please write back ASAP
Please don't give up on GOD just Men.
God has no "church", he doesn't need men to lead other men. He doesn't need anyone or anything to stand in-between Him and anyone. He is not bound up in a book.
You are right: give up on men. Men wrote the Bible. Men "canonized" the bible and then shot it at the rest of us. The Holy Days are dictated only in the bible. Throw out your bible, throw out the holy days. Get rid of guilt. Free yourself from the bondage of religion.
Also my opinion: You will not do any of these things.
Thanks for responding. So are you saying you do not attend a church? Do you still believe? What about the work? Aren't we suppose to meet with the Brethren?
Think for yourself. If you say don't follow men, and men wrote the Bible and men organized churches, why would you join or believe anything they say?
What work? This was a figment of herbie's self-centered, salesman's imagination. It is and was a con job. Do we really think God needs us to do anything for Him? What a weak God that must be. Or to think that He needs us to do something for Him in order for Him to save people or carry out His plan? I would hope that God would have better things for Himself and us to do.
The entire world is filled with your fellow human beings. They are your brothers and sisters. Meet with them. They are a lot nicer than you would ever think after being in a cult.
I believe there is a God. I believe he has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular church or religion. I believe God will work with individuals in spite of the church they chose to attend, not because of it.
If you want to keep holy days, God doesn't care. Just don't think you are better than other people because of it.
If you don't want to keep holy days, God doesn't care. Just don't think you are better than other people because of it.
Does not God say the Bible is the INSPIRED Word of God? What about the book of Revelation? What about tithing?
If I didn't think for myself I would still be in the PCG. I was only in there for about three years. I realized that when I kept the Sabbath by myself out of a church, (never being affiliated with the WWCOG) I had a closer walk with Thee.
God does say there is one church, What about the remnant?
Thank you for corresponding with me. My husband and I were suspended for getting married outside of the church, we did not want to go through their secular counseling. Thank God that opened our eyes to the control issues of the church.
Bye for now.
God does not say the bible is the inspired word of God. The bible says it is. You can't use a quote from the book to prove that it inspired. You have to have some other proof.
There is no proof at all that the Bible was inspired by God. There is abundant proof that it wasn't.
What about the book of Revelation? It is in the Bible, an uninspired book. It is probably one of the craziest books ever written. And crazy people who pretend that they understand it use it to mislead other people.
What about, what about.................???????????? Don't quote to me things out of the Bible and then ask me "what about." It's all BS. It is religious crap. God has nothing to do with it. It is men. Men are still controlling you through a fairy tale book.
How do you know how to worship GOD?
The Holy Days help us remember what God did for us even in creation. I always thought of God when I saw His beauty in natural things. But I do believe the Bible has God's instructions. I also believe men have messed things up with Greed as their God. I believe a lot similar as I did before. But I do believe that we should keep the Holy Days.
We are trying to find a church that keeps the Sabbath and Holy Days that doesn't mention HWA. Not a Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Isn't there someone out there that came out of the WWCG that is honest and has a right Spirit? Not controlling. Please help if you can, I know you don't believe we need a church but I think that it is good to fellowship. How did you get so turned around ?, This is not a negative statement just want to know how you could have been so strongly in a belief and then turn about so drastically. During your ministry weren't there a lot of red flags? Reading HWA's autobiography stirred up anger in me. Hope to hear from you thanks.
-----Original Message----From: RGSHUBIN@aol.com RGSHUBIN@aol.com
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Your e-mail
Your response to Mission Frontiers regarding the Worldwide Church of God piece was greatly appreciated. My heart grieves with you as, apparently, the fallout from their workings has been devastating.
Nothing in our writings seeks to condone harm done to members, past or present, affiliated with former Worldwide Church of God teachings or no longer affiliated. In fact, we noted their authoritarian practices. Neither is there an attempt to scrutinize the use of funds you write of (all transpiring since the Mission Frontiers' piece).
I can affirm one thing alone-that the Living Christ is altogether worthy of our worship. In Him alone can we find the grace to forgive. In Him alone do we find hope for this life and for eternal life to come. I will make a very deliberate effort to keep you in my prayers. Having been wounded by the body of Christ myself (though less severe than your example), I want to affirm that there are many gracious bodies of Believers out there who may well be God's hand and God's heart as you pick up the pieces and move on.
May the God of peace bless you, renew you and restore more than could have been imagined.
My point was and is:
What is the responsibility of a church that was once a cult? What do they have to do, to be accepted now in the Christian community? Is there no responsibility to clean up the mess that they made in the past? If they have harmed people in the past, and nobody can deny that Worldwide Church of God did this, are they just allowed to put it all on Christ and move on with their new venue for making money?
Do they gain legitimacy just by repeating the mantra of the commonly accepted Christian churches? Can they just say the magic words and keep all the blood money from the past and use it to finance their present franchise?
Is this Christian? If it isn't, then they are not Christian. If it is Christian, then it is nothing like I ever imagined Christianity to be. Churches ought to be held to a higher standard of Christianity than ordinary members.
Yes, a member can fall on the mercy and forgiveness of Christ for past sins. Organizations that have abused should not be treated as liberally with forgiveness. They should produce fruits fitting for repentance and that, I submit, should include restoration and repair for whatever they have broken. They should be so darned sorry that they would sell all that they had and give it to the poor that they have made poor and use it to bind up those that they have broken and THEN go and follow Christ. Go and follow Him penniless and let Him build up their bank accounts again.
We are not looking for sympathy for what we went through, just a little justice and not having to watch these crooks get away with their scam and have the backing and support of the rest of the Christian churches to boot.
You who write articles and comment about the Worldwide Church of God should consider this point.
hello I am a former member of the WorldWide Church of God. I was born in this church and believed it's teachings. shortly after my 17th birthday my parents left the church and I left a few months later. I am now 20 years old and am trying to find out for myself what is true and untrue. Though many things still confuse me, I believe that God as made things clearer to me. I do not understand why you say that WWCOG was or is a cult. Yes, though things they do we shouldn't because we are gentiles I believe that some of what they taught is true. You spoke that your wife was ill and she wasn't able to take medication. Well maybe that was true in the 60's but I as a person who suffers from many illnesses was never denied medication. Yes, I was told that it is God who can heal me but I never was raised to believe that it was wrong to take medication. I too grew up poor and my family sacrificed a lot to go to the feast each year but Jesus also kept the Feast of Tabernacles. I think that WorldWide is misguided when it comes to things but I do not believe them to be a cult. I have attended friends churches that are not WorldWide in my search and I have found that ministers are always asking for money. In fact the collection plate is handed out more then once during a sermon. My life was not perfect growing up poor, but I have to say it was not all bad. I left WorldWide because there were things that God wanted to reveal to me. I don't agree with WorldWide but I will not say that they were all wrong.
I would like for you to e-mail me if possible because I would like to further discuss this issue with feed back. My name is Adrianne and I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Adrianne
Sorry, I would find it too frustrating to correspond with you.
I have enough on my WebPages to prove my points to anybody that can think rationally. I realize this is difficult for Christians to do since your Bible and your religion encourages you to think irrationally. Faith in unseen and unproven things, and darn proud of it.
Believe what you want. I don't think it is my job to convince you of anything. The information is there on the webpage. Use it, if you want, to free yourself from the slavery of religion, or don't use it.
Read the cult books that I recommend. You will see that the Worldwide Church of God still is a cult. But it is just a small part of "The Christ Cult", so all Christians are in a cult. Even if you leave the Worldwide Church of God but remain a Christian, you are still in a cult.
You have been brainwashed. Your mind has been fed certain beliefs that are not true but because everybody else believed them, you accepted them. You believe the bible is the Word of God but you have never logically proved it. You believe in "Jesus" but outside of the bible, which you cannot prove is from God, you cannot find Jesus.
All of this information is just too overwhelming to be able to cover in email correspondence. You have to learn it slowly and let one conclusion lead you to another question and another conclusion, and so on. Start with the Bible and whether it is God's word or not. Don't study THE BIBLE, study ABOUT the Bible. Read things critical of it. Don't say that "the bible says that it is the word of God," find some other proof that it is. Herbie tried to prove it with fulfilled prophesies but his Proof booklet had to be pulled from publication because it didn't really prove his points. It was just as much a fraud as he was. All religion is a fraud perpetrated on innocent, basically good people who are afraid of death. Religion gives hope, even if false, but with a big price: Freedom.
I have no desire to debate with religious people. Take or leave The Painful Truth as you like.
Why did only two sign the apology letter?
From reading some of your web pages, I can't help but wonder if you have recently had any literature from the worldwide church of God? The church has undergone several doctrinal changes, and I'm not sure if you know about these?
Just thought you might want to check it out, it may help update some of the views that you hold on the subject of the Worldwide Church of God.
My husband and I just finished reading the Worldwide Church of God version of the Good Samaritan scripture...absolutely brilliant!
My husband reminded me of how Jr. recounted a story during a corrective sermon to our local congregation of a very trying day he had. Back when all the changes were coming to a head, our local congregation got a lot of personal attention from Pasadena because our pastor was one of the formative leaders of a splinter group.
Anyway, there, in front of our group of 200 or so people in rural Louisiana, Jr. gave us an example of a very bad day he had recently, I guess in a way to help all us "little people" understand that he (to borrow a phrase from another well-known crook) "felt our pain". His trials and tribulations consisted of being called home not once, but TWICE during the same day to his house to re-set the alarm system as it was somehow malfunctioning.
Neither me nor my husband can recall a single member of that congregation who had an alarm system on their house. But that would make sense, as they probably had nothing left to protect as it had all been sent to the church!!
Thought you might enjoy that!
Cheers! Keep up the good work!!
Thanks. I just wish I could get some ministerial response to the Samaritan page. I think that I nail them pretty good. I felt like I was inspired, maybe just like the people who wrote the Bible. Hehehehehe....
I had asked for help from three people that I really respected and valued their humor and sarcasm, but they never got back to me on it. I hope that everybody that reads it will think of the wcg whenever they think of the "Good Samaritan" scripture.
New on 3/31/99:
I don't know who you are, and I am sorry for what you went through on a few of your dates. I hope that this web page (The Dating Game) has given you a chance to express your feelings.
This site was passed on to me and a few of my friends (male and female), and most of our responses were that of disappointment that of all the wonderful relationships that came from Ambassador, you made Ambassador seem like an awful place to be. Ambassador was what each one of us made it. I guess you didn't take the time to make it a wonderful place for yourself. Not all my dates were that great either, but you learn from them and move on. The national average for divorce is around 55% and Ambassador is no different. No better and NO worse.
I am compelled to respond to your note of 3/16, if only to continue my own cathartic process of choosing to live with the TRUTH about what Worldwide Church of God and AC were really all about. I am loathe to make snap judgments about you based on your short note, because that is what we were taught to do at AC and growing up in the church. But since that is what you felt free to do about me, based on my article, let me respond.
First of all, you must have been raised in the church and indoctrinated from an early age (AS I WAS) that AC was "God's College" and some wonderful Mecca of spirituality and Christian wisdom. You must have seen those epic movie productions year after year at the feast showing us what an incredible place AC was and dreamed of someday going there, as I did.
You said that you and your friends were disappointed "that of all the wonderful relationships that came from Ambassador, you made Ambassador seem like and awful place to be. Ambassador was what each one of us made it. I guess you didn't take the time to make it a wonderful place for yourself." I don't know how you could come to that conclusion based on my writings, as I mentioned specifically at the end of the article that "It wasn't all bad. I was lucky enough to meet and "date" and finally marry my wonderful husband..."
I think you have missed the point of the article entirely. My purpose was to shed some light on the darker side of the whole AC system...I didn't wish to paint happy pictures of fun in the sun on the shores of Lake Loma. That side of AC has gotten more than it's fair share of attention over the years.
I am offended that you assume that I "didn't take the time to make it a wonderful place for yourself." because I worked VERY hard at making it a wonderful place and was able to take with me many fond memories and enduring friendships which I still enjoy to this day.
My article is just one example of the wealth of disillusionment I discovered while attending AC. I (very naively) assumed that AC would be a place of morals and values, where people wouldn't judge you because of the way you looked and there would be no favoritism. Instead I heard numerous stories of how a certain registrar chose which girls to accept based on their photos on their applications, and redheads had a distinct advantage. I saw people chosen for positions of authority because they brown-nosed their way into it, not because they were the best qualified. I saw people being sent home because of "inappropriate relationships" while others(more favored by the faculty) continued the same behavior and were not disciplined. I was constantly "counseled" by fellow students, who were not my close friends and had no business making personal observations about my life, that I should "dump" my boyfriend (now my husband) because I was "Pasadena material" (back when going on for a full 4 years meant going to Pasadena) or that I would be great for a foreign project and it was implied my relationship with him wouldn't be acceptable.
My local minister, upon finding out I was coming home at the end of two years told me I was only "Half baked", somehow implying that my 2 years at AC were worthless if I didn't continue on to Pasadena. My husband is my soulmate, my life partner...I can't imagine a day without him in it. But if I would have lived my life according to the wonderful "AC rules" I should have dumped him a long time ago and gone on to bigger and better things.
I shudder to think what kind of life I would be living now. I did learn a lot from my dates at AC. I learned that at "God's College" there were narcissistic, egotistical young men with no respect for women. I learned that physical beauty and outward appearance were the qualities most highly esteemed. Look through your old "Envoys"...where are the fat kids with pimples?? Answer...there weren't any!!
And finally, you emphatically assert that the average for divorce among AC students is no worse than the national average. I'm sorry that I am still disillusioned about that one. I thought, mistakenly it seems, that young people fortunate enough to attend "God's College" were being taught "How to live" and we were to be "Lights to the world" and "Pillars of the church community" (These are all catch phrases that were pounded into our heads time and time again during my two years at AC...your experience may have been different).
I expect that young people given such an advantage should have been able to enter the marital covenant well-equipped with what it takes to make a successful marriage, since the destruction of the family through divorce is what is tearing apart the moral fabric of our country.
I wrote that article because I felt that if I could touch just one person who ever felt left out of the "AC experience" because they didn't get to go...to let them know it wasn't all perfect and beautiful, it would be worth it. I have my satisfaction. Within days of the article being posted on the site I received an e-mail from a woman who said "I used to be so jealous of all the families whose kids were accepted to ACbut now I'm not at all saddened by the fact that mine went to other colleges. It's what a child learns and lives at home that really makes the successful, balanced adult not which school he/she attends."
I can proudly say that I learned how to have a successful marriage from my parents, DESPITE what I learned and saw at AC. Thank you for proving my point. As you said "Ambassador is no different. No better..." (which was the whole point of me writing that article) "...and NO worse." (Is that really something to be proud of?)
New on 4/9/99:
Thanks. Although I knew the Worldwide Church of God had changed its postion a few years ago, it was only in the past few months that I finally awoke to the full realization of what had happened to me and thousands of others as a result of HWA's teachings.
I was actually searching for "Plain Truth" in the Net Search, and one of the websites that turned up was yours.
You may go ahead and use my 'lyric' with my name if you wish. Please note that there are some spelling errors ('coverted'= converted).
What I have learned from all these experiences is that it is extremely dangerous and unwise to join any institutionalized church. God is and should always be our direct teacher. I have decided that for the rest of my life, I will remain a non-denominational Christian without active membership in any church. The most pleasing 'church' in God's sight is a small group of friends joining together in a simple worship in some home and practicing pure religion (taking care of widows and orphans).
If the Worldwide Church of God leadership and Ministers wish to win the respect of all, they should say, "Yes, friends, the Worldwide Church of God was one big mistake. We admit we have continued so far only because we cannot give up our homes and salaries. From now on, we will prove our sincerity to you by working for our daily bread just like you fellows. We will never again enjoy the luxuries we are having now which were purchased with member's money." This is the message that every current minister in the Worldwide Church of God should heed. Best regards,
Ed I recently read the latest stuff on your site from Rachel, James, and Douglas. (People keep wondering if Douglas and I are related...answer is no.) Just wanted to encourage you to keep up the good work.
Also has a fleeting dream that I wanted to share with you today. I wondered what it would be like to have a convention for us folks who have left that despicable organization. Then I wondered what it would be like to have a anti-Feast (of sorts) for dissidents and other merry marauders like us. Then I wondered how we might be able to pool resources to rent Big Sandy for the event, as I am sure that none of us are in our third tithe years. Then I thought that maybe the Big Sandy campus should be turned into our own little Worldwide Church of God Holocaust museum of sorts...and maybe someone needs to record the stories of survivors so that people never forget what happened there.
Just thinking out loud. I thought it might be interesting for you. Seriously, it might be interesting to have a seminar somewhere about the problems with the Worldwide Church of God and spinoffs.
Rachel's story was particularly compelling. I was moved by her bravery at such a young age.
Thanks for all that you do. As always, I look forward to hearing from you.
I would think that a convention such as this should more properly be held in Las Vegas or some other fun spot. I never want to see Big Sandy or Pasadena again. In fact, just hearing the name of Pasadena mentioned on the news is enough to make me have unpleasant thoughts of herbie and his gang of thieves.
I'm trying to record the stories of survivors. All people have to do is send them to me.
I was very happy to see your page here on the web. I have a grandmother who is in the "Philadelphia Church Of God" which as I am sure you know is a branch off of the "World Wide Church Of God", and I am very worried about her. I know she is in a cult and being a Christian myself, I sincerely want her to be saved but they have her so brain washed its almost impossible to get her to think and reason.
I read your article on the history of Herbert Armstrong and I was wondering if you could tell me where I could get more factual information like yours about him. I would like to confront her with this information seeing that the man she so worships is a worse sinner than most. I would appreciat any help you could give. Is there any way to contact HWA children or other close friends or family that would be willing to give some information about HWA lying cheating ways? Anything at all would be most appreciated.
Thanks so much.
P.S. I hope that the Worldwide Church of God didn't turn you off of God totally, they might be crazy but our Lord is wonderful. Unfortunately the Worldwide Church of God screws that up for many people. Don't let them mess you up in your walk with Christ.
All that I have on herbie is posted on my site. I know there is a lot to read but you will have to sort through it yourself and find what you think is appropriate. You might want to write to the author of the Honey I shrunk The Church article to see if he may have an address of the grandchild of herbie who said that he knew about the incest for the New Times LA newspaper. Also, follow the links on my site to other sites for more info.
Good luck in saving your grandmother. If you don't, just realize that she is probably quite happy in her present beliefs. People have a way of tuning out all the bad things and saying it is just Satan attacking the church. The PCG has some very devoted HWA worshipers and they wouldn't let a little truth get in their way.
I have not given up on God. I call Him God; you call him Jesus. All religion is screwy.
That "Unleavened Bread Story" you posted was one of the funniest damn things I think I have ever read. Hilarious! And though I can sense your frustration wit Mr "I'm Afraid", do keep up the good work. I know it must be a lot of effort maintaining the site but you're doing some people a lot of good, and I almost fell off my chair laughing to boot.
Long time no see!!! I have been meaning to write you for about 2 months now and just wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to say. I found your web site completely by accident. I didn't even know that you had a web site up, let alone covering the amount of material that you have posted. What an effort it must have been to put all of it together, and I assume a continuing labor just to keep it going.
I found it amazingly enough, because I began to have my regular cycle of guilt that I hadn't been going to church. My wife and I haven't attended in maybe 4 years or so. We stopped going more out of inconvenience than anything else. It just became too much of a pain in the ass to drag our little kids up to services, try to keep them quiet and entertained for 2 hours or so, just to receive some pointless message. I was still very much shackled to the guilt that went along with going to church. The only reason I felt ok in not attending was because the church was making changes and told us that they wouldn't make us feel guilty for some of the things that they used to make us feel guilty for. They still had a long list of things that they still wanted to make us feel guilty about. I was used to that because it provided some kind of security, (like being in jail and knowing you are going to be fed, or something like that.)
Anyway back to finding your web site. I did an internet search on the Worldwide Church of God, and many of its daughters just to see if I could find any news about what the churches were up to. After reading through their sites and finding out what leaders had been thrown out by their own churches, etc. and seeing that the Worldwide Church of God seemed to be about the same I did a search on GTA just to see if he was even alive or not. He had been thrown out of his church!!!! Anyway, one of the hits I got on GTA was your site. I didn't even know it was you at first, I just browsed around and read a few things. I was very unsure of myself at first, because there seemed to be a lot of anger involved with so many of the stories. (Thankfully there was anger in these stories, but more on that later.) Anyway it was a little too much for me to deal with at first and I went to a few of the sites you link to, like David Covington's site and Mark Tribadillo's (sp?) sites and browsed there for a while. I lost track of time and next thing I know it was 3 AM (a Thursday night I remember), and I needed to get to bed. (I am back in college getting a real degree, at the University of ________, for my BS in Electrical Engineering.) Friday I went through my normal day but what I had been reading about was on my mind all day. I didn't get back on the net on Friday, but Saturday morning I was up before anyone else and I went back on the net. I spent all day Saturday on mostly your web site.
I realized that I should be angry about what I had gone through in my life because of religion, but that I had buried any feeling like that under the category, "God is in charge, he must have allowed all of this for a reason." I realized that I didn't even know if there was a God, I mean I had never tried to prove it. I had realized that my normal scientific, skeptical method of dealing with things had been buried under years of "faith". I had allowed a church to control my life. Now I was starting to get angry. I began to reflect on all the things that had happened to me, and I know it was nothing compared to what so many others endured in the name of the Worldwide Church of God as well as so many other religions.
All of this happened to me about a week or so before my brother died. If I hadn't started to explore my own feelings and dig into my own belief system before then, it would have been much more difficult for me to deal with. Sounds ironic doesn't it? I mean I have more comfort in dealing with death apart from any religion that I ever had from being in a religion. The biggest reason I believe is that I am closer to those around me. I don't have a judgmental approach to others. I am closer to my brothers and sisters because I don't let religion speak for me, and thankfully most of them don't let religion speak for them anymore either.
Anyway this letter is getting pretty long, and I mainly wanted to write you to thank you for all the work that you have put into your web site. I told one of your sons that, and maybe he told you, that your site was a big step in my life in shaking me out of my complacency. It took some emotion and anger on the part of someone else to remind me of what kind of negative influence that there had been in my life. I have the right to be angry, and I should be angry. I now I am using that to motivate me.
I have begun reading as much as time allows, going back to the beginning so to speak. I am starting with science this time, since I love science and I'm looking at everything with a much more skeptical mind. I don't mind if others choose to believe in things that they can't prove, but I've been there done that, and I am starting with a new approach. I read a very good book by Carl Sagan called, "The Demon Haunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark." It was a very good first step book for me. If you haven't read it, check it out. He mentions Thomas Paine as being someone that really stands out to him in history, especially The Age of Reason. I remembered that I had seen that somewhere before, and it dawned on me, it was on your web site. Anyway I know that you have it posted but I went to the library and checked it out, just because it is easier to read that way, and I don't have to print anything out. But I appreciate that you have in posted.
Anyway, this thank you is getting long winded. I really do appreciate what you have put together on your site, it was honestly one of the biggest influences on me in getting my view of life turned around. Keep up the good work!!!!
i was raised in the church for 15 years it is all i have known
i lost my faith a year ago, can you please tell me why Armstronism is a
Steel, Sorry I did not get back to you right away. I have been working on a new page: FAQ which should answer a lot of questions so that I don't have to keep repeating myself. Don't let a loss of faith in the teachings of men keep you from believing that there is a God.
Words fail me--and you have to know that's pretty rare! Indeed: Comparing Worldwide Church of God (non-)members (because of the Corporation Sole Thing) to happy little Dwarfs in Snow White is one of the worst and weirdest things I've seen yet! Perhaps "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" can be the lead article and on the front cover of the next "Plain Truth"!
[Junior, are you listening? You provide a product after all, and you want to keep the customers of your corporation happy, don't you? The corporation IS "The Worldwise Church of Fraud" is it not? Some of my checks were made out that way, and you cashed them! (Haven't sent any for years, though.) Maybe the video you send would be more effective if it were "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs". It would certainly be more credible. Can you write a letter like that and have Disney let you get away with it, or are you claiming exemption from copyright rules because it is satire? By the way, the letter you sent made me weary and lose heart. As for Jesus bearing our sorrow and our grief, what do you say to the fact that you and your predecessors caused the sorrow and grief in the first place? (Don't magicians want you to focus on things other than what is at hand?) Your dream of the future is more a nightmare for most of the rest of us. We rejoice that you have finally become an expert on something. At least you can claim to be an expert on the movie, "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs"--you certainly can't legitimately claim to be an expert on God, Jesus Christ, Scripture, or interpersonal relationships.]
Ed, under your FAQs you failed to mention why God hasn't struck you dead yet [or me, for that matter] for all the articles that appear at your site. I'd say He likes, approves of, and even maybe sometimes, inspires them. It may also please Him to have a fire for the truth and a burning desire to help others. Or perhaps time and chance do happen to all. It has been a great blessing....
A friend and very great lady wrote me recently by e-mail about the idea of "natural selection" operating in the context of the Worldwide Church of God. It's a really good idea which may find it's way as an article to your most excellent web site. In the meantime, here's an analogy which really seems appropriate:
Attending the Worldwide Church of God is like taking your auto in for an oil change. You wait for two hours, then you're told you're good to go. You pay for it. You leave. And about a mile down the road you find that they indeed took out the old oil. They just didn't replace it.
We've only been out of wcg for about 19 months, and during that time I've read almost everything about the cult, Herbie., pastoral abuse and the absolutely stupid things we used to believe/practice.
My eyes have been opened and I thank God for the internet and people like yourself and Mark Tabladillo who have made the "Truth" really "Plain". This info has certainly helped in my 'healing' process. Now - almost finished digesting the incredible truth of what went on behind wcg, I've come to this conclusion about 26 years in wcg ie "It seemed like a good idea at the time..........."
What a 'dork' I was! What a waste of time and money and effort. What a waste of a quarter century! Now I've got to catch up on living a life in the real world . I now attend a wonderful non denominational church nearby and have learnt more in the past year than in 26 years of wcg.
Regards from Richard
I was a member of WWCG for about 16 years, and researched it for about another 10 years.
I found that the more I researched, the more I found of swill and cesspool. The WWCG is a power cult, and probably much more. As good as we were "taught" it was, I found it to be that evil and more. I have not found anything on the PAINFUL TRUTH SITE, yet, (I have not looked at it all,) that nearly completes the evil things that I found regarding WWCG. Glad someone is still working at exposing the WWCG and all the evils. The WWCG in the name of God did so much traumatic destruction on this earth, that I have a hard time believing that the Great God in Heaven that "they" (those that plunder His sheep) won't fully be punished and brought to justice. They should tremble in their shoes thinking of this, but they won't because they do not believe in the God that they talked about and used to emotionally blackmail simple and trusting people that are probably truly of God.
The leaders of the WWCG, then and now, have much to answer for.
If you go to this site- www.jwp.bc.ca/saulm/ie4/mark.htm and enter Ed , your name adds up to 666!! Garner Ted adds up to only 668! I feel lucky just to know you.
New on 4/15/99
Hi Mr. :
My name is (Name Withheld), a second generation member of the Worldwide Church of God. May I first commend you for the work you are doing of exposing the evil (past and present) with the leadership of the Worldwide Church of God.
You might be interested in adding this to your section, You might have grown up in the Worldwide Church of God if.. as an attached document.
I'll have to make one note about SEP, I did have some memorable times but there were individuals there that I just found totally unacceptable on their part in regards to their actions or comments. I do ask you not to attach my name to the
document as like some of the contributors prefer anynomity. Get ready to laugh or weep or both.
I was sorry to see Marc 's site "Re-examining H.W.A."discontinued since March 31. It was a very informative site.I guess he just wanted to move on but I wish that somehow the information could have been preserved, perhaps on another site. Anyway, it will be missed.
I hope you continue to keep yours up and running!
Could you tell me more please about what you discovered about tithing in the law? I never thought Herbert Armstrong had the complete truth on this subject.
Sorry, after I did the summary of Tony Badillo's book, I didn't see any reason to waste any more of my time researching it any further.
I read the letter from Tkach printed on your site, what a laugh. Only the brainwashed could believe such tripe. There is obviously no Christ like humility or desire to serve ones fellow man or any sign of any fruit of the Holy Spirit in the man who wrote such a letter with such a put down to those who may not agree.
I would suggest Tkach is on the run trying to defend a fraudulent church based on a potluck philosophy therefore the insulting remarks towards those who have awakened and are set free by the truth about the wcg. This apparently poses some threat or he would not be taking the old pharisaical superior than thou stance towards those who may disagree. A person with confidence if they truly believe what they believe such as 2+2=4 feels no need to put down others to defend a formula that works.
I suggest that Tkach has been shaken inside knowing he is wrong and not really a loving person as we can all see by the thorny fruit born towards us dwarfs or maybe our problem is that we are only babes[mind you the bible if you wish to go by that does have strong words about offending such, at least when its all over] no this man writes tripe aimed directly at those who he knows are having a hand in exposing him for what he is. Most normal people watch such a fantasy tale and come away amused maybe us dwarfs never grew up, that's got to be it! I work the night shift, hi ho so I'll have to go to bed soon as I will be driving to the city in the morning to pick up my wife who works the graveyard shift as a HealthCare giver or an RN in a hospital. We are in our fifties but us hard working dwarfs are saving our tithe for retirement as the church surely won't support us when we can no longer support ourselves because of age judging by what was done to some of their ministers in the last few years. I hope HWA had a good time in the Mediterranean on behalf of the brethren.
Don't let these hypocrites get to you with such hate mail aimed at silencing those who may expose the con. I'm sorry people were offended by this person in a position of power[able to influence others by writing such a letter] but we can see it is because he is feeling insecure God would probably say be of good cheer. HWA would probably say I read the end of the book and I would say Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to work I go...[just call me happy]
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