Worldwide Church of God: Email: Sweet and Sour, Page Fifteen

Dear Sir--in reference to your web page concerning various ministers of the Worldwide Church of God and why they deserve to be canned, I strongly disagree with you about Joseph Tkach Jr., and also about my minister (Fort Smith, Ark. church), Terry Warren.

Neither one of them is a "gold digger", and neither one is a hypocrite, as far as I can see!! Granted, the Worldwide Church of God in the past was deceived, and very much mislead ( I was baptized in 1973, during the "Garner Ted" era), but, even during that time, I believe that a lot of the ministers were true christians, but that they were, just like all the rest of us, mislead!!!;, which led them, naturally to give out the advice & counsel that they did!!!

So, please, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, ok? I am still a member of Worldwide Church of God, and the change in it is like a (HUGE) breath of fresh air!!!!! a completely different organization, and I look forward to services each Sunday morning, and I attend because I want to, not because I am "commanded" to!! Well, thank you for listening

I believe that I had some correspondence with your Terry minister. Don't remember his last name but do know he is from Arkansas. Please do let him see my response to your email. I'm sure he will be interested. I have heard from others who know him well who think he speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

UpOn recalling my very first visit from a Worldwide Church of God minister----(fall of 1968), I was asked by him if I dated very often--to which I replied "no" ( I was 18 yrs old at the time) to which he responded "Are you a homosexual" ?, which i considered to be an invasion of my privacy, so, i lied about it and told him "no"

in retrospect, looking back at weekly "sabbath services", it seemed to me that the main reason that a lot of the young single men were there was, as they put it, to "seek a mate"--as if that were the only thing in life that was important, and they seemed to use "church services" as a convenient means to that end.

I am presently 49 years young, and still single. But would consider marriage, if the right man came along!! HA!!!

I'm glad that you see the value of what Ed and his contributors are trying to do. And I'll be the last one arguing the merits of compassion but you have forgotten one critical thing. Not all of us are christians. And, although you are certainly entitled to what you believe, you are seriously shortchanging yourself and everyone you minister to if you (as you obviously do) force yourself and your followers (yes, *your* followers) into the mold of christianity, even where it may not fit.

You see, there's a distinction between christianity as a religion and christianity as a philosophy. And don't tell me that christianity has to be a religion cause you're following someone Buddhism is ample proof against that. Christianity as a philosophy can be a wonderful force for the good. Christianity as a religion (see www.landoverbaptist.com) can be one of the most heinous institutions to ever sweep our earth)

You, my friend, need to open your mind and realize that although the bible *does* contain some gems of wisdom and truth, that it is no more inspired and infallible than the writings of any present day "apostle". I realize you're probably afraid of your mind being polluted, but as your own bible says, the fruits of the spirit are those of sound-mindedness, if your bible is truly inspired, then you have nothing to worry about.

Again, passing on my gems. By the by, I just finished Stan Rader's book of a few years back. Interesting. I wonder if anyone has ever read it in its entirety...what a bore! Because of my vested interest in the group, it was marginally entertaining. I must say that I had to wade through a great deal of namedropping and cult-like manipulation of fact in order to determine the accuracy of his text. I can't believe the guy was capable of giving any legal/financial advice whatsoever.

Yesterday, the Global Church of God was notified that a lawsuit had been filed against it by Don Davis. As was explained in the SRS letter (Setting the Record Straight), Don Davis' loan was not due and payable at the time of the split. Nor is it now. In fact, I don't think that any loan-prinicipal

payments at all are due until November. And I have heard that Don Davis' loan is not due for a couple years.

A hearing is taking place this afternoon at 1:30 PDT/3:30 CDT in a San Diego court. IMMEDIATE prayers are requested for God's intervention. In 1979, the state of California attempted to destroy the Church of God and now in 1999, it seems departed brethren are attempting to do it again.

I have heard that there is a rumor spreading around LCG that this and other lawsuits that will follow from other LCG ministers and members are in retalliation to a supposed threat from Global to sue all the leaders and members in the LCG. This is nonsense, as no such threat has ever been insinuated. The August 20 GCG member letter asked for help in PAYING OFF the loans!

I have also heard a rumor that the LCG plans to have people bringing one lawsuit after another in an effort to tie up Global and freeze the assets

until we are brought to bankruptcy. If this is true, it is a blatant attempt to DESTROY the Global Church of God.

By the way, one notion going around, that Global can skip town on its debt, is ridiculous. You can't get out of paying your credit card bills by moving to another state.

Seek God's will this weekend in our fast and please pray that His will prevail in all of this.

The recent letter from Dennis, while an honest expression of anger and disgust, contains more than a hint of misogyny (and I hope I've spelled that correctly). While I will not dispute Loma Armstrong's immense influence in the evolution of Worldwide Church of God as well as in HWA's tortured, skewed morality, I have to take great exception to his depiction of Eve (and women generally) as having a "dark force." Of course, we're dealing with mythology here, but as a myth, the Eden story has been a monumentally destructive force in the manner in which we in the West view women. It portrays the woman as susceptible to the soft words of a slick roue (the tricky serpent), and as a temptress who seduces her God-fearing husband away from purity and truth and goodness. This has been the Judeo-Christian view of women throughout the history of the West.

Dennis should know that the patriarchal scribes and priests of the Hebrews, dedicated fiercely to male domination, pieced together this story as a means of turning their people away from the Goddess-based religions of the Canannaites and other surrounding peoples in Palestine. The history of the Israelites in the Promised Land is one of religious strife, of Yahwists bent on destroying every vestige of a much older belief system based on nature and on worship of the female deity. The power of that system was so attractive that it was never rooted out from Palestine before the captivities. The Eden-myth represents the Mother-Goddess figure of Eve as having introduced sin, evil, and misery into the world. Our idea of the female of the species has been toxified ever since. Interesting that Dennis describes her power as "dark," as that's just what the Yahwists wanted to portray: a dark, brooding ominous force in contrast to their bright lightning-god Yahweh.

Personally, I wouldn't want to embrace any religion (were I so inclined to do so) that sees God as only one sex or the other. As a man, I find the idea of a female deity much more comforting than some angry, jealous male divinity who commands his people to go into Palestine and kill every last man, woman, and child.

I once read a message posted to a e-mail forum that mentioned how he frequently goes to HWA's final resting place, to anoint it in a very personal way.

Could you tell me where HWA's final resting place is located. I would like to "anoint" it myself; as I suspect would others. I can even imagine collections of anointing liquid being collected from other individuals who feel the same as I do about wanting to anoint this hollowed (sic) ground as much as I do.

I have a vision of tractor-trailer tankers criss-crossing the country taking up donations from like minded individuals from all over the country and converging on the aforementioned "hollowed ground" and anointing it en mass. I can even see converted oil tankers taking up donations from other parts of the world and sailing for the hollowed shores of America to anoint . . . well you get the idea. Still venting!

This has occurred to me also. There was almost an Ekklesia Email List anointing party at the birthplace of hwa, which is in Des Moines Iowa, as I recall, but we never managed to get together. I guess that place is now a gas station.

I just checked out the new updates. Russell's letter was very thought-provoking. Just the other day I wrote to a friend who is fighting an uphill battle for justice in an unrelated matter. Whenever I run up against obstacles I can't help but be reminded of Don Quixote tilting at windmills. It occurred to me that if enough of us make enough small dents in those windmills, sooner or later they might just fall down.

I would like to add Mr. Cecil M_______, to your list. He is the Minister that stated how a Christian should dress. " A christian," he stated from the pulpit, "wears a white undershirt and white underwear, never black." He is also the minister that spoke out against Christians being outside of their homes past midnight, believe it or not. " A Christian does not need to stay out late", he spoke in a tirade, treating us like children, in a Sabbath sermon.

He is also the Minister who said in a Holy Day, "Growing Christians should be giving more and more in Holy Day offerings," he spoke in a derogatory manner implying that if were not giving more and more, we were not "true Christians." Is that a church of Jesus Christ, a church of GOD?

I didn't get your name. Gotta have a name to nominate the abusers. I remember one minister, Bill Miller, in the Appleton Wisconsin area that would not let men take their suitcoats off during services even when it was real hot and no air-conditioning. I am told that he said that he would decide when it was hot enough to take the coats off and then he would tell the men.

Mr. M_______ was the minister who said that a Christian must wear a white undershirt and white underwear, never black. He also said, in a tirade, from the pulpit, that a Christian should not stay out past midnight. He also stated that a " Growing Christian should be giving more and more in Holy-Day offerings." It was an insult to God if we did not give more and more", what an insult to God it was indeed, Mr. M_____________ sayings.

Mr. Cecil M_________ was a Minister in Montreal, Canada then Winnipeg, Canada, then he was moved to Phoenix because of his arthritis. He has since left the Worldwide Church of God and has been divorced, because of the changes and divorced because his wife grew tired of his "Hitler" ways.

The ways of the cults are the paths to destruction. One might even say that being a member of the Worldwide Church of God was being an "idolater", as the church was deemed to be all-important, more than anything else, including the truth.

Mr. Tkach Jr., admit the truth, be a man, you have inherited the falsehood of a cult.

I have come to a realization. Yes, it is true, no denying the fact, we have been hurt by the Worldwide Church of God's, particularly HWA's (the plagiarist), teachings and abuses. We have suffered great losses in family relationships, friendships, career opportunities, financial, etc.. Some of us have lost their whole lives.

What use is it to hang onto the past? Let's move forward, let's get on with our lives. Posting Ministers names is not going to undo the wrong that has been done. I ask that we, the hurting, make peace with God and get on with our lives. The past is gone we cannot change it.

I look upon the whole situation as a learning experience. Never again will I allow anyone to infiltrate my mind, never again will I experience mind control. Real Christianity is about freedom of mind, the truth shall set you free, not about legalism and revenge.

Throughout history, we keep on rehashing the same controversies. We keep on re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. God will deal with HWA and his cronies, we do not have to.

Some relatives of my husband's are still involved with Armstrongism. So, when a diagnosis of cancer was made, they shunned any conventional medical treatment (it was caught early, and the chances of total cure was 90%). Instead, they consulted other people in the cult who recommended various oils, herbs, and lotions. Not that anyone GAVE these to them, but rather SOLD these worthless, expensive "treatments" to them.

Now this relative, who is not yet 60 years old, is in a very advanced stage, the cancer is all over, and is in so much pain that walking is almost impossible. But, being totally brain-washed, they are convinced they did the right thing!! Maybe they want to join that other new branch The Graveyard Church of god!

I feel much the same way you do. I was born in the Worldwide Church of God in the 50's. We left in '91. I have been looking for a church for a long time. I don't want anything to do with the Worldwide Church of God or any of there daughters. I feel so sad for all those stupid friends of mine that don't have a mind of their own.

My mom was disfellowshipped from the Worldwide Church of God and my father is dead. I am married for almost 25 years to a great guy that I dragged into the church and five children. The two oldest are 24 and 22 they still remember everything. The youngest three don't remember cause we left when they were so young. My children are from 24 to 9 years old.

I feel so screwed up. We have visited many churches. I just feel like I cannot connect. I saw a former Worldwide Church of God member a year ago and she said that she was going to an Episcopal church. I have tried the Episcopal church and I really like it. The people are very down to earth and they are not hypocrites. That is what I don't like about most churches. The Baptists say they don't believe in drinking, dancing or gambling but they do all the above. I am just like you I feel the need to belong somewhere. I want it all. I want a church to take my kids to and feel connected. I want the tradition and the stained glass windows and yes even a steeple. I even want a big cross inside.

I know what you people mean on this web site about people giving up. I have seen families torn apart, people become alcoholics and even give up completely on God.

I guess I am one of the few survivors. I'm still married and no I'm not alcoholic. I have made up my mind that I'm not going to let the past get the best of me. When I first left I thought I was going to lose my mind.

Well I guess I have done enough harping. I live in Shreveport, La. and I would love to hear from former Worldwide Church of God people.

Just thought that I should let you know that your site does bear fruit. After I noticed a ministers name on your disfellowhipment list, I e-mailed him since his wife and I had been good friends. But it had been nearly 20 years since I had heard from her, so I wasn't sure what her response would be.

Surprise, surprise; she is married to a minister and miserable, not in the marriage (or if she is in the marriage she hasn't said so) but with Worldwide Church of God. We are busy catching up on nearly 20 years and rebuilding our friendship.

Makes me wonder how many others are married and suffering, but they have no idea that there are other women out there who would still be their friends. My suggestion. To all other women that contribute and read your Website; drop a note to former friends you just might be surprised what happens.

I have also been keeping in touch with a lady who contributes to your site, she told me about your Helen Gardner addition. Very interesting. Still have more to read.

And the ministers always complained that their biggest job was to counsel married people about their problems. The problems were, in fact, caused by the church. The church would not let unhappy people divorce. Duh. We sacrificed our present lives that we are sure of and happiness now, for promises of a life after death which nobody can guarantee, if we would only follow and obey men.

The Helen Gardner page is very good. I had some technical problems with it at first so some people may not have seen the whole thing. It is five webpages long.

I read it right after reading about John Trechak's death, which was very saddening to me. I wish I had sent him an email (as I was intending to do for some time) just to say thanks.

I hope after you grow tired of actively running the Painful Truth site that you will do as Covington has done and leave it up. (I've noticed several sites becoming relatively or completely inactive lately.) You have a lot of helpful information and there are still honest people who need to hear it.

Left the Worldwide Church of God just over two years ago and have not looked back.....only in amazement at our own naivete.

Your opinions are so close to our own that we could have written them ourselves. We believe that the corruption should be exposed...both past and present. Up here in Winnipeg, Canada, it took a bit longer for the info to filter down. We were both very young when we were "sucked in" to the Worldwide Church of God. Our parents had a bent on doing things the hard way so this church was perfect. How wonderful to discover that God's forgiveness was ours all along.....without the archaic acrobatics.

We have read "HWA's Tangled Web" and the Kessler Letter. This info was the stake thru the heart of that cult! or the "icing on the cake"!

We have felt that the ministry seem unable or unwilling to pursue those who leave.

Are they afraid of receiving a verbal beating? or are they totally inept? Shepherds?

Hope your life is more normal, peaceful and happy. Ours is! Keep up the good work. Your page gives us a feeling of kinship.....we've been there too!! With thanks,

I concur with Russell of 30 August. Cult membership has had two major impacts on me and others I have observed.

Be it Armstrongism or any other cult. As a whole, one's ability to form and develop relationships is greatly curtailed. This appears largely in relation to the opposite sex. And, secondly, cult worship can destroy one's purpose in life. For creative people, cult membership is particularly mentally damaging.

At age twenty-two I got it into my head that I would be in the 'place of safety' by 30. The result was that not only could I not form good relationships but my reason for living was taken away. Some of the most critical years for education, career development and marriage I gave away for someone else ego needs.

Here are some extracts from Eric Hoffer's book The True Believer which your readers may be interested in:

"We join mass movements to escape individual responsibility, or, in the words in the ardent young Nazi, "to be free from freedom".

Even the mass movements which rise in the name of freedom against an oppressive order do not realize individual liberty once they start rolling. "

"The inordinately selfish are particularly susceptible to frustration. The more selfish a person, the more poignant his disappointments. It is the inordinately selfish, therefore, who are likely to be the most persuasive champions of selflessness.

The fiercest fanatics are often selfish people who were forced, by innate shortcomings or external circumstance, to lose faith in their own selves. They separate the excellent instrument of their selfishness from their ineffectual selves and attach it to the service of some holy cause. And through it be a faith of love and humility they adopt, they can be neither loving nor humble."

I was shocked this morning when scanning your web site!! The death of John Trechak grieves me. My most heartfelt condolence to the family of Mr. Trechak, a man that contributed to the Benefit of Humanity, and not the destruction of his fellow man.

I recall that to those who just left the cult John would send, at no charge, and with nothing expected in return, copies of current or past issues of A.R. As John put it "They were bleed white by the Worldwide Church of God."

Shortly after leaving the tkach cult, I learned of A.R. and knew without a doubt that I made the correct decision to leave. John's writings on the armstrong-tkach cult came at first as a surprise to me, for I had no idea of the extent of corruption within that cursed organization.

Truly Mr. Trechak will be sorely missed by many who were liberated by his newsletter, and we owe a deep gratitude to a decent and honorable man. My anger prompted me to ask my spouse this morning; If there is a GOD CREATOR why does he allow the good man to perish and the ripoff bastards to prosper? There is no answer to this question.

I really hope that A.R. will continue to be published by those who worked with John at the paper, and that the concept of continuing the exposure of corruption, and the greed of tkach, along with the other churches of god, (those religious brothels) that are operated by armstrong indoctrinated pimps!

In Mr. Trechak memory, perhaps all of us that support the exposure of these false ripoff religions, should make an extra effort to help our fellow man and educate them about the reality of herbert armstrong and his spiritual offspring, those who lay the foundation to the road of destruction. Call someone today!

I just read today your posting of my Solomon's Temple message on your website. Thanks! I received one response but perhaps I phrased something wrongly because the responder thought I was seeking more information. I am not, I am seeking to promote what I already have.

On another topic. I see that you have a summary of my tithe book posted but the return address should read P.O. Box 824281; NOT 824282. Better yet, have them send all mail to Bertha Cruz at10425 Ferguson Road, Dallas, Texas, 75228. She has a some copies of the book to sell, I stopped involving myself with it a long time ago. All letters sent to my P.O. Box will be forwarded to her, my ex. I still own the copyright and if you wish, you can post the full page tithe book advertisement which appears on the book itself. You may even remove all pricing info from it if you wish and merely say something like, "For purchasing details contact Bertha Cruz at ..." etc., etc. I don't know what price she sells the book for. If you don't have a copy of the tithe advertisement I can mail you one. It's very effective although its all in black and white. Thanks again!

One more thing: some place on your website I am listed under ex-WCG churches and associations. My name should be removed from this category because I haven't been active in any organization of this type in many years.

Herbert W. Armstrong, along with his mother Eva, wife Loma, and firstborn son Richard David (Dick), are all buried at the Armstrong Memorial plot and Worldwide Headquarters for the Graveyard Church of God in the Mountain View Cemetery, 2400 N. Fair Oaks Avenue, Altadena, California 91001, Phone (626) 794-7133.

As you enter the cemetery, proceed down the road as it curves through the cemetery. As you come to a fork in the road, take the left fork and as this road curves you will see the Armstrong Memorial on the left.

From the road you see the front side of the Memorial. As you move around the Memorial and face the rear, which has an identical inscription as the front, you will see four engraved flat marker stones over the actual burial plots.

The left one is the hand that rocked the cradle, Herbert Armstrong's mother, Eva. The second from left is God's living-impaired end-time Apostle, Herbert W. Armstrong. The next is Herbert's Apostle, Loma D. Armstrong. The one on the extreme right is Herbert's Dick (Richard David Armstrong).

Respectfully jump up and down a few times to let them know you are there. Sometimes, the Apostle is too busy continuing in dead works to receive visitors but give it a try anyway. If you want to get the best results, leave a large cash offering on the headstone overnight and an e-mail address where the Apostle can send a thank you note. No Stueben Crystal, please.

P.S. All visits are to be respectful and fitting as would any visit to a head of state or world leader. These directions are to a private cemetery and are in no way intended to encourage vandalism or destruction of a gravesite, which is illegal.

I was just reading the e-mail. Surprised me to see Larry's letter. I thought that wcg was homophobic. I mean, as bad as women were treated we were at least accepted as having the right to live. But all the ministers I have ever heard have talked about homosexualism as an abomination to be wiped out and destroyed. For the most part male members, especially those that have been around for years, think that they should take a rifle and shoot homosexuals.

Having been exposed at a young age to a parent who felt that all had the right to live their own lives the way they want I often would question these "christian" men on why they felt that homosexuals were worthy of only death.

I was a little surprised too. Although, I think they did allow homosexuals if they were not practicing.

Maybe Larry is so happy about the church being changed because now they will no longer wish him dead if he can't control his natural (or unnatural, depending how you look at it) desires.

I have to say that throwing the Bible away has given me a lot more tolerance for other people's beliefs while not necessarily agreeing with them.

I spent enough years around people in California, especially San Francisco that it has always bothered me to see people judged by sexual preference. I got even worse after watching the way that some heterosexual people behave. I can understand from having known what these people have gone through why, you know as much as Christian claim to suffer for their beliefs it is nothing compared to what to what people who do not follow the standards of this country have gone through. We have preached, one man one woman, yet if you look many want to experience sex with more than one partner, many want to do as much as they can get away with. To me the crime is not doing but wanting to do, feeling guilty about what you want and then condemning others for doing.

I can understand women who have been raped never wanting a man to touch them again, and I can also understand women who would rather never be touched by a man. Since I don't believe in a god that tells us what to do; and I believe in do no harm. I believe that people should be able to find love wherever and whenever they want.

The excuse of animals and nature only do it with the opposite sex is wrong. All one has to do is watch milk cows. For those who do not live in the country, you should know that when cows go into heat they mount each other and stand to be mounted by each other.

Ed, I wonder if I have gone to far. But having raised and bred animals. I do know what they will do.

I believe there are two reasons that most ministers will not sign the Apology page.

First is that unless a person genuinely FEELS personally abused or injured, there is no need to, in their mind. That is why some say " it wasn't that bad", or "I found more good than bad from it." They do not seem to "connect " that many were devastated, and live with lifelong consequences of the experience.

The second reason is the good guys don't FEEL convicted in their heart that they abused or hurt anyone, only served them well. That eliminates the need to sign due to guilt by association.

Some are like me and you who are outraged that it happened, and FEEL the pain for the many who were abused and hurt. I hope I never stop, and will support you to reveal "The Painful Truth" , so that we may help keep it from continuing.

that I really realized just how busy wives are. I guess I had known it at one time, just it had become a blurry memory. And for many women the only "vacation" they get is the Feast, now for all who have been there and done that they would remember that is no vacation. The Feast always meant three times as much work for wives and mothers, especially if they were "blessed" enough to have husbands with the "opportunity" to serve.

Part of what made me realize the contrast between life in the church and life out was reading her Feast plans, and the vacation plans we just made. We are planning a trip; we will go wander West for three days, stopping at any place that catches our interest (might even get some Christmas shopping in). And then we will wander back home a different way, so much different from beeline to Feast stopping at planned stops for planned length of time. And then after Feast straight home so we can get back to work and school; and recover from the Feast.

Brought back to mind one women's club meeting; the minister passed out a list of responsibilities for men and women. He had also passed it out for spokesman's club. On the man's side were three items, two of which had to do with getting the car ready. On the woman's side were about 30 items, and there was the suggestion at the bottom of woman's side, that if she was going to use the car for any reason on Friday that they would be taking to services on Saturday, then she could relieve her husband of the burdens of making sure the car was washed and filled with gas. Then he would have more time to prepare himself, as head of house and spiritual leader,(read between lines: "have another beer") for the Sabbath.

The biggest disservice that religion does to women is to turn them into slaves; and at the same time trying to tell them that this is the way that god wants them. At least Christianity does not encourage FGM (female genital mutilation) though from the attitude of some men I think they would like that to also be part of what is required of "good Christian women."

Not sure that the fault lies only with the ministers, not that I am excusing them, but when I think about the way that society treats women which is as objects more than human beings.

I had to take a number of different courses when I was in college for my business degree; marketing alone made me aware of the way that women are used to sell. Not only does a nearly naked woman focus a man's attention on the ad, but it also gives men a stereotype of what a woman should be.

It was interesting to be taking a Psychology class, and a class called Women in Society at the same time I was taking Marketing. I found that there was a direct correlation between how society viewed women and eating disorders. I was surprised to learn that women actually were making progress in the late 1800's and early 1900's in changing the way they were viewed and treated. But a resurgence in Christianity undid much of the progress that had been made, frightening.

It is hard for any minister to help a marriage when he is using as a guideline a book that relegates women to the same level as slaves and animals.

I finished Helen H. Gardner's work. I think she would be very saddened to know that the last 100 years have brought little or no change in the lives of women. In some ways we are barely one step forward from where were when she wrote.

I know that 15 years ago while in Salt Lake City, I called the police; a man was beating his wife. Her sister feared that he would kill her if not stopped. The police told me that they had no business interfering in a marriage. Fortunately for that woman, one of her children tried to help. The father threw the child off a second story balcony; since I was still trying to talk the police into coming out when that happened I said something. The police were there in less than five minutes. Another child was hurt inside the apartment, so the police entered the apartment. When the medics came, they not only took the two children to the hospital but also the mother since she was unconscious and they needed her approval for the treatment of one of the children.

Maybe you could do an apology page; from the men to the women. For all the things they expected and required of their mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters as members of wcg.

I can think of a few things, some happened to me and some other women have shared with me.

Volunteering to usher at the Feast, so the women had to also be there early and get the children ready early.

Making the Feast the only family vacation, which for the women was not a vacation but turned every day into the Sabbath.

For joining Spokesman Club, so that you would have a night out with the boys and never giving your wife a night out with the girls.

For refusing to spend the money to hire a bookkeeper for your business, since she could do the books as well and it wouldn't cost you anything.

For deciding how much money she should spend on food, when you haven't been the grocery store in twenty years.

Being to busy talking to watch your own children, and then yelling at wife on way home for their behavior.

For being willing to take the time to spend with the children of the good looking spiritual widow and not those that really needed the attention.

For inviting people over after services, and your idea of helping was to find wine glasses so you could drink while she fixed food.

For using the Bible as a club to "beat" your mother, sister, wife into proper submission, and then drooling over the outspoken single girls.

I suppose I could go on and on; but I am not sure what you even think of the idea.

Sorry to say that you are right about Helen Gardner and the lack of women's progress since her time. The power of religion.

As far as the Apology page for men, don't you think the men should do so personally? I really don't think there will be many that would sign-up. How about something like Reasons You Should Apologize To Your Wife, Mother, Sister? That way, maybe they could get the message anyhow. Let me know what you think.

I know we couldn't afford a vacation, other than the feast, and I was doing pretty good compared to lots of other members. Since we left wcg, we have done some traveling around Wisconsin, Oregon and Michigan. Went to Las Vegas last year and we are planing on going to Hawaii next year to celebrate our 25th anniversary.

As far as Spokesman Club, I would have done anything to not have to go to it, other than give up my eternal life, which was basically part of the guilt trip to make you go. I was amazed that some guys did like it. Maybe it was a chance to get away from their wife and kids or maybe they had ambitions.

You are right about apology page, it was an off the wall idea. I guess there were so many men that treated single, especially divorced women as if they had the right to rule that I got carried away.

You wouldn't, but then maybe you would, believe the number of men who thought that they should be giving me advice about raising my children. When I was a single parent, the bachelors were the worst. I wanted to leave my children with them for a weekend just so they would have to face reality. But there was no way I would have done that to my children.

There was one man in the San Jose church, he knew everything about children and child rearing, who took a friends three small children for a long weekend while they went away. About 5 hours after they left I got a panic call, I told him I was to busy to help. He spent hours calling all the local women to help him, guess what? no one took pity on him. Half way through Sabbath services I did take pity, the little girl needed to use the bathroom, and I took her. It was great, after that long weekend, he never offered child rearing advice again.

Great job Ed, as usual. I love your ability to analyze the situation, plow through the BS and hit the nail right on the head.

I just can't figure out what these people of the new wwcg are thinking about. Sunday keeping [?] mainstreamers and they still have their hand out! Thanks Ed for the info. keep up & keep on.

Joe Sr. used to say there are none so blind as those that will not see. Thats a mouth full.

I'm still mad about all the birthdays and Christmases I missed out on, not to mention Halloween, Valentine's Day, and Easter!! The only holiday we were allowed were Thanksgiving and 4th of July.

What a sad, sad childhood. How painful to be asked by a classmate "What did you get for Christmas?" I made up toys, pretending to be normal. When in Rome do as the Romans do....That is, we should be allowed to participate in the activities of the culture.

Basically I felt like a social outcast and freak about every two months (i.e. Feb 14, april, oct 31, dec 25, etc) Yes, I wish my mom had that tithe money back. It could have financed my college, or down payment on a home.

Well now I do what I want. Bring on the xmas trees, the heart-shaped cards, and the Easter baskets, also, Halloween costumes.

I was saddened to learn of the death of John Trechak. The church of god world is one of lies, distortion and spin. Trying to learn the truth is extremely difficult as pastors general and anointed ones re-write history in order to justify their reprehensible actions.

John Trechak saw the corruption of Armstrongism first hand, and dedicated his life to exposing it, at considerable cost to himself.

I discovered the Ambassador Report only recently. Friends of mine in the Worldwide Church of God would ask me why I read his publication. I would respond that while I couldn't verify every item reported in the Ambassador Report, I had seen enough during my eighteen years as a member to validate what I didn't witness directly. I didn't have to see everything; what I saw was bad enough, and it was very similar to what Trechak reported.

With the passing of John Trechak, the church of god movement loses one of its most effective watchdogs. It will be harder for those still taken in by the Armstrongist con game to break free from the fraud. It is a sad day for those who still believe in the Armstrong hoax.

Don't you have anything better to do than to surf my site? Sheeeeeeesh. When I find a Website that I don't like, believe me, I don't go back there. Guess you ministerial types have too much time on your hands.

My Website frees people. Your ministry traps them and enslaves them. I'll let God judge who is feeding the hungry, me or you.

Your master (until recently) used to misuse other people's literature by plagiarizing it. You misuse other people's letters and put them on the web.

As to my time, don't worry, you already have enough to worry about how to put even more dirt on a dead man you used to worship for so long until recently.

You certainly won't win many converts to your religion by being so nasty. I suppose your nasty letters are supposed to be private since you are a minister? Sorry, there is no ministerial privilege here.

I wouldn't be so smug, if I were you. You also follow a man: Jesus. You can't even prove that he ever existed, outside of the bible. And the bible is so easily invalidated. You have nothing more than your faith in an imaginary man for a religion. And so, you are also in a cult, as I was. But you are still stuck, while I am free.

I can't stop you from surfing my Website but I can stop any further mail being downloaded to my computer from you. I will not even see any more of your messages. This should save you some time for more surfing of my site. Maybe you will learn something.

It's been four years since I quit attending the Worldwide Church of God. You'd think after all that time I'd have come to a place of peace about it, but no.... I've still been carrying a lot of guilt and worry around over the whole thing. Reading all the information on your site has brought me closer to a sense of closure.

We, my husband and I, came into the church as young adults. He'd been studying the booklets for years and I guess you could say I followed him in (but at the time I felt that I was being "called" ~ amazing what tricks your mind can play on you, isn't it?).

We spent 10 years in the church. We stayed in Worldwide Church of God throughout the changes brought about by the Tkachs... wondering how in the heck we ever got involved in this group in the first place! A job change for my husband moved us across country so we said goodbye to the Worldwide Church of God and started visiting protestant churches in our new city.

We attended a Methodist church for a couple of years, tried to get involved, and finally decided it was just another flavor of the Worldwide Church of God. So, we just dropped church from our lives all together. And, I thought I was fine with this but over the last year or so I've gotten quite depressed over the whole thing.

In looking on the 'net for Worldwide Church of God information I came across your site. It has been so liberating hearing from others who have been left in the same place that I find myself in because of the experiences with the Worldwide Church of God. Maybe there is hope that I can erase the messages that were recorded in my innerself during my time in the Worldwide Church of God (all the guilt and worry) and find a sense of peace about it all.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that after all this time your Website has helped someone else. My scars may not be as visible, or even as painful, as some others' but they're MY scars. Thanks for your help in healing them. Best wishes to you on your life's journey.

Good to hear whenever someone benefits from the site. Keeps my wife mollified when she sees me spending time doing it.

There are still a lot of people that may one day need the information so I have made plans for a dedicated friend to continue the site when I no longer can do it for whatever reason.

I recently watched a program on PAX about bible codes. It said that things that have happened or will happen are encoded in the bible. It got me to thinking about the same thing that you have written in your article about praying for things that are going to happen any way.

Are we wasting our time praying? Also is my life going to be lived out the same no matter what? It really gets you to thinking doesn't it?

You may have read some of my letters I have written to your web site. I'm an X-WCG and I was just surfing the web Saturday and ran across your site by accident. It kind of startled me at first when that page came up " calling all dead"

I have enjoyed the site so much my husband thinks he will never get me off the computer again. I could spend days here.

Are we wasting our time praying? I don't know, but it does boggle the mind doesn't it?

If we are all programmed by God, as in predestinated, then I don't want anything to do with a God that would predestine people to be tortured or raped or be in a holocaust, etc.

Logic would tell me that we are all directors of our own fates, while also being affected by other people's decisions. Any interference by God would change everybody's destiny. My only problem with that theory is that I have had too many incidences in my life where I can see that I have been directed by some outside entity. So, maybe I should play it safe and pray, but I don't feel comfortable with that. Besides, most Godly interference's in my life have been those which I have not asked for. It is almost as though I have been forced into situations that I can't avoid.

I think that the "Calling All Dead" page may be on the herbertwarmstrong.com site. I am friends with The Caretaker and have some links to his site. Hope you can benefit from both sites. The Caretaker does a great job with his humor. He has made it possible for me to look at pictures of herbie or at his name and not have feelings of revulsion. Now I can look at his picture and be thankful that the man is dead and can't hurt any more new people, at least directly.

Your contributions to this page are more than welcome. If you don't appear to give me permission, I will not publish your full name.
(But if you attack me and make threats, then you go on the "Hate Mail" page and I will publish your name and email address.)

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