Worldwide Church of God: Email: Sweet and Sour, Page TwentyNine

I would have thought that with the content of the pages (of herbertwarmstrong.com), if anything, Satan would be assisting. I'm surprised anyone would think that Satan would attack. Maybe the Devil has it ingrained from the wcg days....

My experience in this area with sign-ups is that, yes, people would sign up, they just wouldn't show up. The difference was in military experiences: The ones without military experience did sign up, but didn't show up.

As for One Sent Forth, I have given this much thought. Anyone who was ever asked to leave a restaurant, would be someone Sent Forth. Likewise, anyone thrown out of a bar would be "One Sent Forth". The instance of bars is better, because they often have bouncers. Bouncers lay hands on people to "Send them forth". Therefore, with the laying on of hands, and being sent forth, we could have the Gay Apostle sent forth from Gay bars, the Biker Apostle sent forth from Biker Bars, the Cowboy Apostle sent forth from Cowboy Bars, et cetera. It would be as easy as getting rowdy, having hands laid on you, and being sent forth. Ed, you are in a special case: As (I understand it), you've already been ordained a deacon at some point, so you have the laying on of hands part, so being sent forth is no problem; and, yes, I think being told where to go does count in this case. If someone was disfellowshipped, they were sent forth, which is why we are seeing so many apostles these days.... I'm so glad to have an opportunity to be your spiritual advisor, it is an honor and privilege, Sir!

No one knows why HA used double-you. There are many possibilities: It may stand for double-you over, which you know perfectly well what that lead to; it may mean double cross you, which is what he did; it could mean double-you turn, which would leave you going pretty much the same direction you were going before. Who knows? What was really slick is that we never saw a birth certificate. Ever. As for our illustrious President, I just never want to hear anything bad about our civil leaders since I work for one. [Actually, he's one of the few who seems to have integrity: An honest politician! Now you *know* I'm delusional!] Ah, but what the Dr. Hoeh! We can have fun in our psychosis! Who can say what our President will do after office. Perhaps he will be a part of the one world government everyone is pushing these days....

Ed, if you think I'm serious about any of this, then perhaps I should tell you where to go.... I'm having just too much fun! [It's better than whining about the misery! Whine! Whine! Whine! Three whines from the lounge! I'm being sent forth....]

PS: One more delusional thought--have you ever considered that the wcg is just like televised professional wrestling, except for the abstraction that the wcg just wasn't quite as overtly physical? The CoGs *DO* seem to be taking out their aggressions on one another and slamming each other. What do you think?

Yes, I was influenced by Mr. Armstrong when I was 17. I'm 44 now. I spent 23 years as a member of that church. Yes, I had problems. They had a whole lot that was simply wrong. However, this trait is not at all unique to that church. No doubt about it, it had terrible attributes and ministers. Can't you say the same about many mainstream denominations? The Worldwide Church of God had no Inquisition, as did the Catholics. They burned no one at the stake. Yet few would doubt that the Catholic Church has brought many to Christ despite their flaws both past and present.

Believe it or not, it had some good attributes despite its bad ones. Having been a member for so very long, I know that they taught these things: Repentance from sin; receipt of God's Spirit; redemption through the blood of Christ; obedience to God, not Satan; building moral character through the resistance of temptation, salvation through faith, not works. Yes, this is true. I have heard too many sermons on the subject to get this one wrong though the common perception is contrary to this.

As far as the rest of it is concerned? How can you condemn the Worldwide Church of God without also condemning the Amish? Their lifestyles are also extreme. Even among the Catholic there are monks who vow poverty and abstinence from a normal marriage and sex life. They have the greatest hierarchal government. Yet there are so many orders of Catholics that you can find the best and the worst among them.

I say this, not because I hate Catholics or the Amish, but you can look at religions in this world that are undeniably Christian (or widely accepted as such) that have at least as much extremism.

What I know is that I would never have come to Christ through the Baptists or the Catholics or the 7th Day Adventists or any other religion. At 17 I was in need of Christ but didn't know it. HWA motivated me to Christ when I was proud to be atheistic and ridiculed Christians as being ignorant. Without that Church I may not be Christian today. Through that church I repented of dead works, was baptized, learned about the Bible so much that even today I can recite entire epistles (not that this was required or encouraged to memorize, but I memorized the Bible through zeal brought upon by the excitement from the church's teachings).

God works in mysterious ways. He can convert the fringe of humanity, who would respond no other way, with a cult, if it is his pleasure. The church imparted basic truth with a lot of fringe error. But basically they taught enough for a person to become saved by the life of Jesus. In that, they fulfilled their goal, even if they did it clumsily.

In every human effort there will be gross error. Yet there was enough God in that church to save some, despite their error. So it is with all churches.

Right now I have abandoned the old ways. But don't you know that, mostly, the rest of the church is too? The doctrines have changed so much you could hardly find a difference between them and mainstream Christianity. Even the Feasts are voluntary are only yearly assemblies for the purpose of worshipping God, sort of like a seminar. They have been defanged and declawed. They are no more harmful than a revival meeting. Why downplay a festival, voluntarily attended (over half the congregation opts not to go) that is no more than a peaceful assemblage to hear worthwhile sermons?

I think you are fixated on a particular church without condemning the large, powerful churches that also have serious problems. I think you should point out general errors and list ALL of the churches, great or small, that have these errors. After all, it is the error you want to eliminate, not a particular group.

About Joseph Tkach Sr: Don't you know that it was Joseph Tkach Sr who listened to a letter from a Catholic Minister which initiated the changes you see? All the congregation was alerted that we became Trinitarians because he heard the truth and was willing to change. He stopped the mandatory tithing. He was the one who told us Sabbath observance was not mandatory and that the Mosaic Law was utterly obsolete. He told us that all churches were valid and that the Worldwide Church of God was not the one true church. He encouraged fellowship with other Christians outside of the church. Don't you know that he did more to destroy the old error than you ever did or ever will? Don't you think that his son will listen to any reasonable compliant you have if it is presented in a respectful manner? That (now famous) Catholic minister sent in a letter and the whole church changed. Why do you think your influence can be seen only with this web site? The Catholic minister had no site. He sent a single letter. That is how to be highly effective. His son is even more level headed than his father. Joseph Tkach Jr. is far less aggressive, bossy and assertive than anyone before him. Did you know his policy is NOT TO PROSELYTE? He doesn't even seek new members, only to lead the unconverted to Christ. He wants to teach the unchurched. They made these changes and lost half of the membership. They did it because they knew it was right. Give them credit for that.

Lastly, I know for an absolute fact, that headquarters was not keeping tabs on what field ministers taught. Many of the local ministers were off track, and drastically so. If you look at doctrines, be sure you hear it from the source, not what some field minister said. The field ministry, demonstrably, taught outside official doctrine. This was brought to light in the church's newsletter, the Worldwide News. Many of the teachings of local ministers were directly contrary to HWA's views (such as not baptizing someone because they were not spiritually qualified. HWA's documented attitude was that no real spiritual progress could be made until the Holy Spirit filled the person after baptism. Many other things attributed to the church were field-ministry errors. Notably the concept of the church going to Petra as a place of safety. HWA condemned that as foolishness. He said he mentioned it once in a sermon a long time ago and the ministry seemed to have taken off with it.) He was often dismayed and flabbergasted at some of the doctrines that were circulating.

This is a tip: Be careful of your sources. The real truth is not easy to discover and sometimes there is more than one truthful fact: the fact of what some ministers taught, the fact of what was officially taught and what the members actually believed and practiced.

I think you should rethink your position on this church. Your hate for the organization (as one that is uniquely evil and disqualified as a church) is becoming less and less valid as it continues to change and as the others in other churches are reexamined for the purpose of comparison.

Apparently you haven't looked at many of the pages on the site, especially the Bibliolatry page and the FAQ page or you would have the answers to the questions below.

1. I take ALL churches to task. All Religion. It just so happens that I was a member of wcg for 25 years and they are the ones that will be exposed for their hypocrisy on my page. I don't have time to waste on them let alone ALL the deceptive con-men-religions of the world.

2. They may not have "burned" anyone at the stake, but the lives that they have ruined are just as real to those that are living them or those that are dead because of them. They are still just as accountable and responsible. And, unlike the Catholic church of today, they have the opportunity to FIX some of those that they are responsible for "breaking" because many of these people are still around, yet they will not lift a finger to help any of those they have damaged. Is that what Jesus would do? Is this what makes Christianity so attractive: that you can blame it all on Jesus or leave everything up to Jesus and take no responsibility for your own sins even if you are, supposedly, His Church? Seems to be some serious self-deception going on here as well as deceiving of the members.

And I would say that, even if there were no "old money" to think about here, the present members and leaders of this "church" should feel obligated to repair all that was broken by this "church" because it is still the same organization, the same name, the same ministers. To think that all they have to do to absolve themselves of their horrendous past is to change their beliefs to mainstream Christianity is the same as saying the present USA is not responsible for putting Japanese Americans in concentration camps during WW 2. Or that people that committed war crimes during WW 2 are no longer responsible.

Or what about the contractor that was supposed to put a roof on your house but didn't, instead he raped your wife, killed your kids, stole your money, threw you in jail? Well, now he is really putting roofs on houses, because now he has found Jesus, so y'all come around now and he will put a roof on your house for real. Of course, you will have to pay for the roof again, you will not get a refund. You will not get your stolen money back. Your wife is still screwed up because she was violated, your kids are still dead, your retirement is gone, you can never get back the time you were in jail. But he has found Jesus and everything is all right now. For him. Now, I can understand a corrupt contractor just walking away from all his evil but how can a "CHURCH of JESUS" do that? How can they just sweep all the damage under the Jesus Carpet and walk away? Can't anybody see something wrong here but me?

3. Yes, they did bring people to Christ or "Jesus." Unfortunately, they brought people to a figment of the imagination, a delusion. There is no evidence, other than a discredited book (the bible) that this person ever existed.

Sorry, I won't go on any further, reading your message and trying to reply to each point, it is making me physically sick. I can't keep going over and over this crap. The webpage is here to educate you on these things but you have to read the material that I provide. Take it or leave it if you wish.

If you feel it is your duty to defend the undefendable, please defend the present wcg based on my answer to FAQ question #2. Nobody has been able to do it yet.

Me: Born into Worldwide Church of God 1970-left 25 years later-now-don't attend any church

I first became aware of your site after reading the hilarious article "Honey I Shrunk The Church" at a laundry-mat in LA-Dec.97. The article was a joke especially the part about the faithful gathering every year to pray for Armstrong's resurrection. A couple weeks later I dropped by the Pasadena campus (first time in 3 years) and the place just freaked me out. It reminded me of a George Orville novel-1984. The world didn't end, as often predicted, but the beloved campus sure has. Every building I visited literally had chains around the doors/ with only the admin building in use. All that energy and planning and money for 3 decades culminates in all the buildings being locked up-unused.

Everyone for years has speculated on the sale of the campus and the distribution of "monies" but I just don't see any motivation to do so. As long as Tkach's monthly check clears he's happy. In the business world there's accountability and swift action. Tkach feels he has been beat up so much he is taking a "breather" before he is sued some more when the sale finally does go through. It is sad though that they cannot find a more constructive use for the buildings. It is a serious waste.

I have witnessed consistent corruption since I was a child and sadly have confirmed a lot of what you write about on your site. I apologize for the letter being so incoherent. I will just make random comments as they pop in my head.

1. Yes the church wasted money. Yes the big-boppers showered comfort on themselves. When I was a student at AC-PAS I asked the art dept. for some help with a project and was astonished to find several full-time employees working on (c.a.d) an elaborate project to emblazon designs in GOLD onto several mirrors which was part of the G3 redecorating. I think there were 6 guys working on the project. Who knows how much the remodeling project cost. I used to work at the San Jose Jet Center as a Limo driver and one wealthy businessman told me he spent over 2 million just remodeling the interior of his G3!!!

2. My next year at Big Sandy I was assigned the job of mowing Dr. Ward's lawn as well as Tkach's guest house. Dr. Ward's door alone was worth more than my car and Tkach had a private decorator come in with a free budget to redo the house. It was lavish to say the least complete with a real oversized artic bear rug. If you were a "big-bopper" you enjoyed the good life. They even served exotic ice-cream of all things/ to big boppers. I remembered that cuz I love ice-cream.

3. My brother's wife got a job in the purchasing dept. and was literally "called on the carpet" cuz she ordered cheap napkins for a "big-bopper" event and was ordered to cancel and buy napkins with "silver like" graphics. She was astonished. As we all know, nothing compares to the Amb. Auditorium. Real gold trim etc. etc. I grew up extremely poor. my dad worked for a window cleaner and my mom told me he loaned $2,000 in 1972 to help fund the project and has never received a dime in loan repayments. I hope once the property sells all proceeds will be distributed back to members/ past and present.

What is really sick is to read old Worldwide news from the late 60's early 70's. Armstrong played some serious emotional games with people over and over again and he always won and got what HE WANTED. It's almost like the fancy grass and the fancy dishes (remember that-Armstrong buys European sculpture dinnerware) and private (most expensive) jet, mansion, etc. was a fantasy where he dreamed it, suckers flipped the bill, and he got it and CONTROLLED IT...over and over again. No one put a stop to it.

Tkach senior just totally confused me. Some people say he used to be a top level exec. Others say he never was. It is obvious though that he had a perpetual compulsion to play monopoly with the church's stuff i.e. sell one jet/ save ... buy another jet... put proceeds in building fund... sell...this then buy that... then re-budget this then cut this and so on and so on............ and guess what? People really didn't care if he saved one tenth of one penny off the price of a piece of paper by hosting strategic meetings with paper execs. (transported via limo's). He just chased his tail thinking his purpose and his justification for being around was to turn all function into business. It is sad when church's are reduced to corporate heads acting like glorified Fortune 500 exec's.

I have referred your site to several friends all former Worldwide Church of God-ers and one friend stayed up all night and morning pouring through it. It does help to know others have gone through a lot too.

Thanks for your message and short bio. If you read the past issues of AR you will find that Tkach Sr. lied about that top level job at Huff and the plant going out on strike for him. He lied about his experiences in the navy with the ship sinking and him jumping ship. I would imagine that the lying didn't stop there.

I'll make this message short so you won't get too grossed out. They forced me into bankruptcy. My wife and kids had to move 1,000 miles away to a less costly area while I continued to work in DC. I had to divorce my wife so the state could take care of my son's medical expenses (epilepsy). I live in my mother's estate because I can't afford an apartment.

Yes. They damaged me good. When I asked for help they utterly refused. Finally the local minister gave me a check for $300.

They are bastards for not helping out those who they hurt. You are right on that point. Mr. Tkach is selling the campus to pay for ministerial retirement instead of helping the members recover, or even have decent places to hold services.

However you are wrong on one point. I read in the WN a great deal of long articles about what was wrong with doctrine. They exposed HWA and made no qualms about the fact that they were abandoning him. They went through his history and showed how he was wrong. They ridiculed his teachings. He has no head stone for his grave. By the time the WN was through with him I had utterly forsaken his teachings.

My sympathy to you for what you have suffered at the hands of these ungodly men.

I never said that they did not change herb's teachings. They obviously did that. They had to destroy his teachings but they would not destroy the man with the truth about himself. Tkach Jr. told me himself in a letter that he is known as the bearded Armstrong basher yet they have kept HWA as their aged and respected, although just a little wrong, founder. They abandoned his teachings, they have never abandoned him.

They know that, if the trash him they are trashing themselves. They have no other rights to being ministers except by and through him. They have no rights to the property and the members and the money except by and through him. They will not tell the truth about HIM or Tkach Sr. out of love of money. If most members knew the truth about the personal lives and deceptions and evil about these men, they may still attend services because they have friends there, as I know some do, but I'll bet that they don't give them very much money. And Tkach and the other ringleaders of this perfectly legal con-game, are in it only for the money and to have their egos stroked.

I have said that, other than their obvious incredibly evil legacy and debt to those lives that they have destroyed and ruined, and their incredible hypocrisy at taking the name of Christ but being unwilling to act as He would, they are no different from any other Christian church, more or less.

Greetings : Please advise what you think/know of a series of letters called "Mystery Letters" in the inet that basically say Messrs Rader & Trechak were working for the Vatican?

I was with John for 1 year at AC(BW) in the same study room, and he certainly stood out as a totally different profile from anyone else there.(We got on well. I was typecast as an "intellectual", but he could more than match me. ... he encouraged me to take up weightlifting as a sport, due to a sight problem that limited my ability to participate normally).

Points PRO the letters include they explained a lot of seeming anomalies (including why several of the people mentioned as "heavies" should 'by chance' all happen to be at an out-of-the-way third class resort recently).

Points CON are that once you are outside the Worldwide Church of God you realize how it is only one of many many organizations ripping millions off followers ... why should the Vatican target this one?

John Bower's recent and informative article on SELF ESTEEM while sad, is only too true. John's experiences parallel so many others. Ever since you published the article on ALCOHOLISM & THE Worldwide Church of God, I've had several private letters that have been heartbreaking with the horror stories that have been precipitated by an uneducated, ignorant, and downright sloppy ministry at Worldwide Church of God.

Why, Oh why, so many have said, didn't those people ever warn us about addictions . . . alcoholism, drugs, gambling, etc. Why didn't they tell us how easy it was to get hooked on alcohol? Weren't they supposed to be "ministers?" Weren't they supposed to know about these things? Unfortunately, AC turned out a bunch of uneducated brats and their wives into the field who were knowledgeable only with regards to Herbertism and little else. Where were the Dale Hamptons and Glen Whites? Other "religious" institutions teach their graduates about the dangers of addictions and educate them all in the art of counseling folks on these matters. What happened to Worldwide Church of God's lackeys?

There are brethren who have undoubtedly died by now as a result of neglected education and ignorance from the Worldwide Church of God hirelings regarding all sorts of addictions. Brethren are dead or now suffering because of the lack of knowledge of the problems in which they indulged and deemed acceptable. As many letters have said to me, why didn't the Worldwide Church of God "ministry" cry aloud, spare not, and lift up their voices in exposing the problem that was so relevant in the church, but which no leader had the guts to address?

But then again, since the spineless leadership was known themselves to have over indulged in alcohol, whoredom, gambling, and - reportedly - even drugs, what sort of disgusting example was held out for hirelings to preach about and brethren to emulate?

Many of those current hirelings are now secretly reading these lines, and are no doubt gathering sermon fodder. Many of those hirelings are no doubt mentally working as hard as they can to justify their sins of omission. It ain't working, and they're fooling no one. To those prostitutes, I say, please be sure to read all of this TWICE.

Hey, fellas . . . we're all still waiting to see your names on the APOLOGY PAGE.

Hehe, I assure you I am not a dogmatic religious out of control nut. Hi again John, this is probably my last and final letter in response to your first mail.

Thank you for the time and effort you took to try and answer my mumble jumble.. I really do appreciate it.

Having read your thoughts and the extent of pain HWA has caused in the past towards your mother and yourself personally and thousands of others, I would first like to extend a shoulder to lean on and my condolences.

Yes, I am not a member and true I did not have all the facts of HWA and his immoral acts and behaviour and nor can I accept it without solid evidence. I appreciate the effort you took to encourage me away from his teachings. I can see it was from your sincere concern for my own welfare. Likewise, that was the identical reason I tried my best to relate back the goodnews exposed to me of God from ambassador College Bible correspondence course.

My father never exposed me to HWA's lessons. I stumbled across them one day. The first book that caught my eye was "United States and Britain in prophecy". My father is a quiet man, barely spoke in the family. My mother was more dominant of the two.

I took it upon myself after reading this book to explore what else could be revealed.. Yes, I was interested looking for hope and unanswered questions.. such as does God really exist.. etc etc.

The reason why I am not a baptized member is that I only discovered these books 12 months prior to this email. I found out HWA passed on and the church has changed doctrinal belief with numerous members leaving or branching off to keep traditional doctrines. And trying to discover which of those numerous Churches is teaching the truth has left me a soldier without any form of weapon and armour.

This is why I have given up the search and am not a member of any CoG. Too much confusion so much Churches and doctrines to consider. It just got so tiresome that I sadly slacked in my faith practise and ceased study altogeather.

Well that was just a brief information to inform you for my reasons for not being a member. Nor do I know much concerning HWA's characteristics and immoral acts.

But whatever happens we know God is the ultimate acts.. btw you said you were a better equal if not better then most those professing Christians.. perhaps you are.. but let me quote you "Forgive them? Mmmmmm, no." It is our christian duty to forgive.. for your own sake the Bible clearly tells us too Matthew 6:15, "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Mark 11:26, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." It was repeated to emphasis a essential Christian duty when living in faith..

well I could argue against all your points made in your letter..And I know you could with mine too. But I will not.. Because I simply appreciate your honest response and I understand that you are concerned but also bitter. And time heals wound. God Speed.

Thanks for your reply to my reply. I have a much better feeling about you now, too. Just a few notes in response you what you said.

Nor would I expect you to. You aren't going to find any photographic evidence, or any eyewitnesses to HWA's rapes and molestations, but evidence does exist. I think the Painful Truth website has several articles documenting these atrocities, and possibly links to other sites as well. The most well known source, to my knowledge, is a book entitled Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web, by David Robinson.

That one is a very compelling book. It is very logically written and very believable. It was the foundation upon which much of Worldwide Church of God doctrine was built. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), it is wrong. It simply cannot be proved. Nor was it revealed to HWA by God. In fact, the details written in that book are taken from another book written about a hundred years ago entitled Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright (as best I recall). The "ten lost tribes" theory is also fundamental to a number of white supremacist groups in the USA, people whose basic ideology is the same as Hitler's.

Consider yourself very, very lucky that you only recently discovered this stuff. Now, think of all that material as radioactive, something that will, if you don't dispose of it at once, make your hair fall out and your gums bleed and then cause you an agonizing death. It's poison, and will cause you nothing but harm. My advice is to burn it immediately.

As for these spinoff churches, forget them. They are made up of people who are still slaves to HWA's theology. All of them claim to be carrying out HWA's original work, but obviously they all can't be right, or they would all be united. You seem to believe in the Bible, so I point you to the scripture that says "God is not the author of confusion". Keep that in mind as you consider these churches.

Did I say that? I don't recall saying that. I certainly don't consider myself "better" than anyone else. Luckier, perhaps. If you've read many of my articles you will know that I was certainly as brainwashed as any of them, a real "true believer". Under the wrong circumstances I might even have become dangerous. If I am "better" in any way at all, it would only be because my motives were never a matter of greed or power. I never sought to take advantage of anyone else, and that is still true today. But, aside from the ministry, I think the same can be said for the majority of those in the Worldwide Church of God that I knew over the years. Most of those with predatory instinct ended up being ordained.

Even God doesn't forgive those who do not repent, and I'm not nearly as nice as God is supposed to be. Anyone who asks my forgiveness will receive it. If little joe tkach came to me today with his hat in his hand and sincerity in his eyes and asked me to forgive him for his part in all of this--and if he convinced me that he was sincere--he would be forgiven. Done deal, no problem.

But these guys are like Nazi war criminals. They feel no remorse. They believe they have done nothing wrong. They are unrepentant. So they get nothing from me. And I think God will back me up.

Honesty is the only thing I have to offer--and the truth that I have come to understand through hard experience. I, too, appreciate your honesty and sincerity. I am glad we had this communication, and I hope you will find a truth you can live with that will satisfy your needs. Keep an open mind, and "try the spirits" to make sure they are from God (or at least are not against him).

Unbelievable! That is all I have to say to those who still defend wcg, hwa, joe sr., joe jr., (yes, I know I didn't use CAPS, I do know where they are!).

You seem to think that those of us who write to this site are a bunch of delusion, self involved people who suffered outside of the main stream of wcg. We have had various levels of experience with wcg; some of us were even "blessed" with responsibilities. (How does a woman become a officer in club? The minister decides you are acceptable. How do you get out of it? Speak your mind.) I think that you will find that few who had responsibilities ever really volunteered; yet many of those who write here did have responsibilities. And as such we know that the things we relate first hand.

When we write about the horrors of SEP that is because we were there. The year I went the only one who didn't get swatted was the son of gta. There is nothing like giving a bunch of frustrated college kids the power to hit those younger than them and call it correction.

When we write about horrors of hwa it because we saw them first hand. Day of Atonement 1967, we in Minneapolis were blessed to hear him speak first hand; after about 2 plus hours into his sermon he said it was time to break. Then it seem to hit him, and the next words out of his mouth were something like this, "This is the Day of Atonement, you have no place to go so I will finish." The man talked for 3 more hours. You would not believe the trouble us teens and younger got into later for not being able to sit still and hear the apostle of god. Many of us couldn't sit for hours later, after all if you spare the rod you will spoil the child.

For those of you who quote the bible; most of us who were around for years can not only quote chapter and verse, but we can give it to from 3 or 4 different versions. Some one mentioned the old correspondence course I hated that thing. All forty some lessons. Then when the "new" one came out we were expected to do that one from start to finish also. And as teens we were expected to spend 1/2 hour each day on the damn things.

You can defend your god all you want but that doesn't make him real. Me, I know there is something more powerful; but I am not sure what it is. Personally, I also like George Lucas's description of it as "The Force."

The Graveyard Church of God has undergone a vicious attack by SATAN and has been down for over a week. As soon as things are up again (by end of the week), the Apostle can once again return to condemning people to the Lake of Fire and promoting dead ideas to a world held captive. You are very high on the list and will receive your certificate shortly.

"On a Matter of Self Esteem", You are a man of great courage to tell your story and open up your wounds. I empathize and truly understand

from both the alcoholic situation and the self esteem issue. My brother was an alcoholic who never got the support he needed from our family. He died at 56 from alcohol, smoking and no self esteem. He was 7 years older,(I am his age now) never a part of the church, but I can thank him for all I learned about alcoholics and the internal anguish and suffering they go through as well as the family who loves them so dearly.

That, as well as the self esteem issue is exactly what my friend wrote about in the "Dead Inside" article. If we are not valued and treated with respect, mass murderers is what can come of it, or a suicide, or some other form of addiction to help us feel better about ourselves. The opening of my awareness to this was Art Mokarow and the Human potential Movement. I saved his tapes and knew them inside out! He promoted self esteem and hwa stopped the whole movement. The magazine was a farce, but Art Mokarow was right and somehow we knew it inside.

That was 1978-,by 1984, I needed to seek help for our family problems as well as marriage. If it weren't for my friend opening the door in counseling for us, I do not know what may have happened. In Wisc. our minister was Carl McNair. he had no problem with anyone going for any help. It saved my marriage and gave me a new sense of independence.

In the process I read "I'm ok-you're ok". You know what a stink Joe sr. and jr. had with that one. After that I listened to John Bradshaw "On the Family" and discovered what a dysfunctional family the church was. (And are by creating a "dependence on god, authority, in the bonds of religion.)

In the meantime little joe was badmouthing psychology and self esteem. Then we found out he was getting a degree in psychology. What a hypocrite!! Also while the mighty Dave Albert was calling himself a counselor/psychologist and he did not even have a degree. The whole troop are a bunch of liars.

My husband was an elder and we attended 2 refresher classes. That was after hwa died and we were surprised to hear of the "talk" of hwa. There was a definite lack of respect, and we wondered in 1990 just was really going on. By that time, I like you, studied the bible on the subject of self esteem, and came to the same conclusion.

We need to have internal or intrinsic value just because we exist. John Bradshaw said "we are human beings, not human doings". We are valuable just because we exist, not for what we can do. The church created human DOINGS. That is all we were good for, serving, (them) and DOING THE WORK!! So they could reap the benefits.

Now we know the truth, hwa and crew were as dysfunctional as they come. The bottom line of it all is POWER.

Yes, I commend you for telling your story, and hope others will be helped in the process. The one thing we all have in common is the WWC experience, some more abused and affected than others. Yet the pain can not be minimized. No matter how much or little, it was bad, destructive, and we all need to help each other heal. It may take a lifetime. At least we are not alone. I wish you and your family the best. I know it will get better.

I was wondering if you're web page concerning Worldwide Church of God was meant for before or after the split. Were you once a member?

I was wondering if you have read my FAQ? Please do, all of it, before replying to this.

Then, if you would like to defend the present administration on FAQ #2, I would be glad to hear it. Nobody has been able to give me a rational answer yet. How does a Christian church act so UN-Christian and get away with it? How do the present members rationalize it?

I would say that present members have to take on all responsibility for the horrendous past, and responsibility for all the damage done to members and children in the past, when they decide to stay with or join the NEW! and IMPROVED! wcg. Just as the present government and citizens of the USA of this day are not responsible for putting thousands of people of Japanese heritage in prison camps during WW 2, yet the courts and the government recognized the responsibility to pay reparations to the people that had been wronged. Guilt by association and by choice. Those that choose to support the present "New Christian Worldwide Church of God" owe it to all those this church has damaged to find all these people and do the best they can to make these people whole again. It is your Christian duty.

Until you do that, you are Christian in name only. You are pretend Christians. You deceive yourselves.

I indict all of you, ministers and members, in the name of God, if you do indeed believe in a God.

I accuse you in the name of Jesus, that you are un-Christian, all of you, ministers and members.

What is that bible verse? "Come out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sins or her punishments." Something like that. When you associate yourself with evil, you will be part of that evil. The new wcg is a whited sepulcher, full of dead men's bones. It may look Christian on the outside but it is rotten inside.

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(But if you attack me and make threats, then you go on the "Hate Mail" page and I will publish your name and email address.)

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