Worldwide Church of God: Email: Sweet and Sour, Page TwentyThree

I wrote you an email a few weeks ago asking if you knew the dates of the change of the divorce and remarriage doctrine and HWA's marriage to Ramona. I did not know if there was any connection between the two.

On page 67 of HWA's Tangled Web, in the chapter "Sex and the Single Apostle", you will find that at the 1974 ministerial conference, Herbie brings up the subject of how accepting the leading ministers would be of him marrying a younger woman. He told about his romance with Amy, a church employee, who was about 25 years old. He said "I just can't imagine getting into bed with an older woman. I just can't see myself in bed with a wrinkled body." (other than his own, I guess) Herbie liked them young, like starting about 12 years old, as with his daughter. "He mentioned several incidents of his relationship with Amy, but never mentioned a young Filipino lady whom he reportedly brought over to the U.S. earlier"

So anyway, he is playing the Abraham role here with the ministry: "Would the church accept a wife of his who is 50? Yes! 45? Yes. 40? Yes....? 35? yes..........................????? 25? No."

"After talking about sex in general for a while, he changed the subject to something else, and as the hour was quite late, we left. Had we known then what we learned later, that evening would have been quite different. He was working on us, even as he knew what he intended should happen. We were looking to him to be a strong church leader, and here he had his mind on women, almost to the exclusion of other subjects. This sickness was to grow worse.

Earlier in the year he had made the announcement of the change in the divorce and remarriage doctrine at the full-scale conference in May, announced his total support of his son, Garner Ted, and departed in his G-II for the Orient. He left after only one day of the conference. It was hard for ministers of the church to imagine anything more important for the next few days than this meeting after a very traumatic first quarter of 1974. Why would he want to leave them after only the opening day? What was the pressing business in the Orient? None could say. It did seem strange.

Now, a few months later, we heard the conversation about his desire to marry a young woman. It did not sound like the talk of a man on whom rested the future of the whole world. Rather, it sounded like the talk of an old and frustrated man, and Bill McDowell knew it."

"An interesting twist to this whole story is the pressure HWA used to put on the young men who were graduating from college to marry some of the girl graduate who were older than themselves. There were always several of those around Pasadena, and HWA wanted to know if there were any men graduates "man enough to marry those older girls." He would use all of his very considerable powers of intimidation. And a good number of men did yield and do their duty, as explained by the "apostle."

"He took it from there to talk at great length about his desire even his need - to marry. It seemed the talk would go on interminably."

Page 75: "Then HWA told me that he intended to marry, and he intended to marry Ramona Martin. He got his wallet out and showed me a picture of her and her son, whom he said was in a private school in Tucson. HWA said he needed someone to lavish his love on, that now he was abundantly able to take good care of a woman. In that regard he told me how much he wanted to give to her, that indeed he had already done very much for her, and had with him a present of a necklace for her worth $17,000.

He said that he wanted Ramona to get sterilized right away but she was dragging her heals. He proceeded to explain how simple that the operation was now. Medical science was very advanced and doctors were now able to do this job on women by using a new instrument. It didn't leave much of a scar. He was insisting, but she wanted him present at the operation, and he was a little reluctant.

I thought he must have modified his stand remarkably on doctors and medicine for him to speak in this fashion. I couldn't help but remember two members of the Corpus Christi church who had died of external cancer which had started quite small and could have easily been removed except for the teaching of Herbert Armstrong. Both were afraid to do so for fear of being expelled from the church for practicing heresy. They were Lillian Armstrong (no relation) and Walter Konze. I could not help but remember them that night, and I believed what he was recommending for his girl friend was more of an operation than removing a small lump from the exterior of the body."

"He got back on the church just briefly. That was the subject I chose to discuss except it took a dangerous turn. He said there were ministers who were extremely liberal, and he was going to deal with them. I agreed that there were. He said if I would name them, he would fire them. And he insisted I give him some names."

Some more headings in the same chapter: "Tales of Masturbation and Prostitution" (read about hwa's notorious little black book, the "flog log") "HWA's Sex Problems", "The Lochner Tapes" where herbie's doctor tapes a conversation with herbie discussing the black book.

"Many think Ramona Martin, whom he married, (seems to be in 1977, hard to nail down dates in this book sometimes) was working for Stan. You still hear those reports. In any case, this marriage was some time in the making. There were stories circulated about the relationship and what happened on their trips abroad. As Herbert Armstrong is so fond of saying, "Where there is so much smoke, there has to be some fire." Using this principle, there certainly had to be a lot of fire! Such stories still float around in shockingly graphic detail. Herbert Armstrong's pending marriage delivered a massive blow to his reputation. When the age difference was combined with floating rumors, his real reputation could never survive among those in the know. While some did still support him, that support was, in the main, based on salary considerations."

"Church literature was subverted to report the Tucson wedding in the most glowing terms. The May-December wedding was made to sound like a storybook romance, when, in truth, it was a travesty."

The chapter then goes on to discuss herbie's tales of oral sex with his new wife and his hypocrisy of teaching members it was a sin.

Well, that is enough typing for me today. I recommend your getting the book: "HWA's Tangled Web" by David Robinson. Its only $20 and there are just a very few copies left and I don't think there will be reprints. Robinson went broke publishing the book. After his high ranking "ministerial" career he ended up as a school janitor. He gave up everything so that we could read the truth about "God's Apostle." Just like anyone else who has told the truth about this cult, he was discredited as being bitter and having and ax to grind. David Robinson died a couple years ago. He still believed most of what herbie taught but he certainly didn't believe in herbie any longer. His widow gets any proceeds on the sale of the book.

Thanx 4 posting the disclaimer on the articles. I hope it removes most (if any) confusion. As I said before, it is never my intention to lecture, only give input from another point of view.

Maybe I should have added another note to "The Cat," article: "Don't try this at home."

Certainly if I had ever been baptized and gotten kicked out for having a brain, I would be proud of it. I think you may find some people who would want to be on such a page. My instinct is that it is a good idea. But there are so many reasons people left and at different ages, baptized and unbaptized, some having more courage than others. It opens a can of worms.

I just read "Salt of the Earth," which is a great portrait of a congregation's components. I think there were extreme numbers of bizarre individuals in the church. I know that in Bethlehem, there were at least 3 members that I can remember who had been or still were in halfway houses while they attended. Several drunks. One man spontaneously jumped through a glass window of a Holiday Inn conference facility and got the whole Bethlehem congregation kicked out of the meeting hall permanently.

Hello Ed,

Just a thought, maybe God allowed error in the Bible to see how
forgiving and loving we would be towards others. After all God is God can he
not do what he wants?

Joe

What would "how forgiving and loving we would be towards others" have to do with error in the Bible?

So, if He put those defective, deceptive, deceiving, irrational, illogical, ungodly, inhumane sections in the Bible just to test our love for him or others, I would say that he treats His children a lot worse than most humans would treat their children.

If your son asks for bread do you give him a stone, just to test his love for you or for others? Would you really expect him to love you when he was looking for food to fill his aching stomach and you not only didn't give him bread but you gave him something completely inedible?

What kind of monster do you worship? I couldn't imagine a god who would make your eternal salvation dependent on accepting the word of a book that He deliberately fills with deceptions and inaccuracies just to test us to see if you are stupid enough to turn off your brain and accept that it is his word, with absolutely no proof at all other than people telling you it is. I would say that you have a much lower opinion of God than I do.

No, I would say that you cannot have a god that would deliberately mislead you. Men will mislead you. Men will deceive you. Men will write lies in a book and tell you it is truth. You can deceive yourself, but God will not deceive you.

The test you are being given by God is whether you will continue to follow lies and deceit when you can prove that that is the case. The test is whether you care more about your comfortable beliefs and cherished religion, even if you know that they are wrong, than you care about following truth wherever you find it.

You cannot accept the fact that the Bible is error filled and therefore unworthy of a perfect God because you would have to admit that you are wrong. You would have to admit that your whole life has been built on lies that have been passed down through the ages under the disguise of God's truth. You would rather make your God into a devil by saying that He would deliberately lie to you so that you can keep believing what you want to believe..

If the Bible has errors in it, then it is not from God. Not from my God at least.

Yes, God can do whatever He wants to do. And maybe God is nothing more than an eight year old god and we are his science experiment for god school. Maybe he is doing the god-equivalent of pulling wings off of files by putting error in the Bible.

If God were to write a book, it would be short and in all languages. Nobody would be able to mistranslate it. He would tell us exactly what He required of us if our salvation depended on it. He would not put error in it just to test us.

No, Joe, the answer is that the Bible is not worthy of a perfect God. It is manmade. It is not from God. It is a tool to control people. It has some history in it. It has some good things in it, as many other books do too. But it is not holy because it has error. We should not have to figure out what is truth and what is error in a book from God. We don't live long enough to do that.

I was just surfing through the internet on the subject of Hebert W. Armstrong and came across your web-site. I was raised in the WWCG, and like many have had to suffer through things that anyone would of had to growing up in the church. At the age of 17 I left the organization and ventured out to do my own thing. Some time later I joined one of the split off groups of the WWCG, that strictly go by the teachings of HWA. I have now been in attendance with this split off group for over

a two year period. During these past two years I have been through more mental and physical anguish than I have ever experienced in my whole life. I quit many promising jobs, one of which was an offer to own and run a private school. I confronted my minister with these questions, because God says in the bible that if you please him he will bless you for all your doings. I felt I was doing everything possible that the church taught, but no blessing were coming my way. His response to my situation was the example of Lazarus and the rich man, and that God was trying my faith, and just like Lazarus its maybe not meant for me to be physically and mentally wealthy right now. However he forgot to mention the people of God in the bible that had much wealth, he just wanted to point out one particular situation in the bible to shut me up. Some time back he told me to get a job at McDonalds to support myself and my wife with, just so I could keep the sabbath. He was telling me this when im now in college to be a family doctor.

As of this moment right now I have made my decision to quit the church, and let God be my judge. I was telling the minister yesterday of my thoughts of quitting the church, his response was one of intimidation. He said that if I did that one day I would surely die and when I did the though would continue to cross my mind if Mr. Armstrong was right or not, and if he is then I would have no chance of salvation.

How do we know God is a loving God? Do you believe God is a loving God? If so, how do you know it? Do you pray to God Ed? Do you believe he hears you? If you do believe he hears you, why do you believe he hears you, has he told you that he does? Whatever beliefs you have about God, I would like to know where they came from. Did you read it somewhere, did a voice come out of nowhere and tell you? I think you do believe in God, but I can't figure out why. I mean where does your belief originate from?

Do you try to make the case that a person cannot have a concept of a "God" without reading a book? I might remind you that the American Indians had a concept of a God without books to read.

The whole creation cries out for a creator. At least in our puny, limited human minds. The vastness of space and the universe; the intricacies and design of physical things being made out of little tiny atoms and electrons. I couldn't conceive of all that we can see just happening by accident or even evolution. I see no evidence of that.

All that aside, I have had too many things that have happened to me in my short life of 56 years that I can only explain as Godly intervention. And they happened before, during and after the cult. There is someone or thing or "being" that is manipulating my life at times. I can't predict it. I can't explain it. These have mostly not been answers to any prayers, so it doesn't seem to be that anyone is really paying attention to anything that I ask for so I basically do not ask for anything and I do feel that it would be presumptuous of me to think that God would change the whole future of everyone who will ever live to answer a prayer of mine, because an answered prayer changes the future that should have been otherwise. No, I have not heard any voices and I am not praying anymore to anything that is not communicating with me or anyone else that I know of.

And, as far as I can see, this doesn't seem to bother whoever is in control here. I have not been punished for not believing the Bible. I am much more blessed now than when I did follow the bible with my whole heart. From this I conclude that it doesn't matter to God if I am in some church, under their rules and submission to their authority.

If it is important to Him, God has got to be able to deal with people who can think for themselves. God cannot just expect intelligent people to believe something with no proof. And so I will stick with things I can prove about God and if He is not satisfied with that, then I'm not going to worry about it. If he wants to hide from us, that is his business, but I'm tired of playing hide and seek.

My beliefs come strictly from my own pea brain. I try to use reason and deduction to figure out what truth is. I do not rely on an ancient, error filled, book that people "tell me" is "god's word." Reason tells me that it couldn't be. I will not hedge my bets by just "attending" a church to see, if there really is a god and the bible is his word, if I can appease him by doing what my brain tells me is absolutely wrong. I'm betting all I have that you and all the rest of the majority of this world are wrong. That all religions are wrong and most are even evil. I do that because I can read and think and reason and judge, and all these beliefs come out wanting badly. I am not the only one who has come to this conclusion all by myself. Read John B. articles, especially the last one: "The Plain Truth About The True Church." He "thought" his way to where he is right now. Same with Troy Witte and his "Who Gives A Fish" web page. Many others have done the same but we are branded by the mindless believers as "lost and wandering." Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshhhhhhhh...........................

Lots of people have learned their lesson about religion by, finally, just using their brains. Religions and promoters of the Bible would tell us that we should not "lean to our own understanding." In other words, if what you read in the Bible or are told by religious leaders goes against what your brain tells you is wrong, turn off your brain or you will lose your salvation. That is fear religion.

Doesn't make sense to me. I just can't believe there's a God who has left us with no communication. That to me is totally senseless. What's the purpose of life then?

Joe

Ed,

Does the website celebrate Christmas? I've seen lots of Christmas stories on it lately.

Clara

My personal home, since we no longer have little children and feel no need to play the Santa Claus game, does not celebrate the day. We have decorations on the outside of our house just because I like the lights. We have some decorations inside because my wife wanted some. But it is all non-religious. We get some gifts for our grown children, but they all have them already since they will all be somewhere other than at home over the holidays. We do the gifts just because we like to give things to our kids and this seems to be a time when they really got cheated out of a normal childhood. We give them other things throughout the year also.

It might be of some interest to any who would like to look more at "religion" in general, to read the essay on "The Antichrist," by Friedrich Nietzsche. It's on the web.

"Church" has always condemned this guy, and no wonder. He didn't have any good to say of any brand of Christianity. This essay was written in 1895. It is a looooooong one.

He discusses the "real" antichrist, and it sure ain't what's written in the Bible.

I don't know if this response will have any meaning for people, yet 10 years ago I learned some wonderful "truths" from "Guru" John Bradshaw.

If you haven't seen his PBS series or read his book "BRADSHAW ON THE FAMILY", I challenge you to do so. He claims, (I BELIEVE) that what is wrong with our Nation, Cities, down to families, is "A FEELING DISORDER". That is why we have so many addictions, to medicate our pain. He says if you don't feel it and work through it, you will pass it on or act out on it with suicide or homicide.

We must learn how to cope and work with our feelings. He calls it EMOTION: ENERGY in MOTION. If we deny it, or bury it, it will find a way out.

People who move on from a crisis or trauma, need time to heal. Also much support. The problem is we need to learn HOW to do it. It is painful for those who choose to help. Pain hurts.

Ever see a mother tell her boys to stop crying...Don't be a baby? That is telling him to deny his feelings, because WE don't want to feel the pain. This is a human problem WE all have created.

We need to realize that we each grieve in our own way. No one can tell us how...or how long. We must learn to "own" our feelings and FEEL them. That is how we get healthy. Another good book out now is "REAL BOYS" by William POllack. His message is "if you don't let boys (children) cry tears, they may cry bullets later." This is a serious problem. We all have to face our part in this.

I hope this information will help some, or at least help us think more about how we treat people. No matter what our beliefs on God are, humans deserve to be treated with respect, and be comforted in times of grief, loss, or trauma. As the old saying goes, "let us judge no man until we have walked in his shoes. (then we'd understand and not judge).

Hi! I realize that it has been some time since I have written. There is much to catch up on. I have received some incredibly touching letters from some wonderful people.

I had a chance to read the letter from Max. Would you please let Max know that I am very interested in corresponding with him? We have gone through some very similar experiences, and I may or may not be in a position to offer some small comfort to him in these very trying times. Who knows? There is much I would like to say, but must go for now. As always, Ed, thank you for the tireless energies that you spend providing us with information to help us brain-muddled folks straighten our heads out.

Hi,
I noticed that you have Steve Elliot listed in the Worldwide Church of God minister's list. He is presently a Hulmite minister in El Paso, TX/ Las Cruces, NM.

Heather

My parents made me stay at home in my room around Christmas eve and on the next day because they didn't want me to be seen around any Christmas stuff or in shopping mall. Someone may report it to the minister. I know they are wrong now. Does the Worldwide Church of God still make people not do Christmas like before?

I think the church is now celebrating all the pagan holidays. This way they can collect offerings on God's Holy Days and the Pagan Holidays. Its all about money.

Tkach did have a hard time sitting on that fence, though, when he was first trying to switch people over. Instead of Christmas, he called it Incarnation Day. Ho, Ho, Ho. He must think the people are really stupid. Then again, maybe they are. Or maybe he is happy to just keep the stupid ones and let the smart ones go because they cause too much trouble.

Received your email of 11/28/99, regarding the status of "reports" that ministers would send in to Pasadena.

We assume you are referring to what we customarily call "Visiting Cards." These cards were not so much a "report" as they were to serve the purpose of a history of spiritual counseling so that there could be a continuity in the counseling as years went by and ministers changed. They likewise served the purpose of avoiding the need to start from ground zero every time a new minister was assigned to a Church.

However, we at Headquarters also could appreciate your concerns. As a consequence, in the balance of things, it was determined many years ago to dispose of such cards by destroying them. Such cards are not kept on file today on either a current or a historical basis.

Thank you very much for sharing your concerns, Doug, and I am sincerely pleased that we are able to alleviate your concerns in this regard. In Christ's service,

Si-a-lent night, H-o-ly night, the song went. The voices blended into a haphazard melody, as little voices and big, old and young joined together singing the old song I had not really listened to in years. My throat clogged, and I held back the tears that I knew were the source of the clog. I have to get out of her, I thought, I can't cry in front of all these people.

This was the first Christmas Concert I attended after WWCG disfellowshipment. I took my little Grandson, and my heart filled with grief, over the loss of all the wonderful times, memories, and fun that my Cult RAISED kids (and I) had missed. Grief overwhelmed me, and I hardly could make it home that night. I was not prepared for the overwhelming emotion that flooded me. Nothing could have prepared me.

Grief was my constant companion after being in "god's one and only true church". It ain't the way it should have oughta been. But then........it ain't a church neither!!

I looked for other things I wrote, only had a computer for 4 years. Last 3 been busy with a "life"! Anyway, I have found a few things I think may be worth putting on the website. I will send as I get them prepared. Thanks Louise ====================================================================

EXCERPTS FROM LETTERS written to X-WWers and WWers looking for answers, WRITTEN OVER THE YEARS..... Written by Louise

Yes, God loves the people in the cults, and specifically WWCG. If I can love them, and I do, how much more can the True Shepherd love them? That does not mean one should go back in there. We must expose the evils and lies and double messages, and the methods of deceit (open house lovebombing WWstyle) and pull our brother from the flame (Jude) whenever we can. We are commanded to expose the evils.

You must sit still and wait on the Lord to continue moving in your life (Isaiah). Be still and He will direct your paths. Wait and trust Him. Let Him deal with your husband/wife/friend. Trust Him to do what you are unable to do. However, don't give up.

A con artist, or game player, or false teacher (as Worldwide Church of God is) must be watched for what they do, and not just for what they say. They have tongues of silver with words that slide off very well. However, duping the public with bait and switch routines and not being open and honest with all the doctrines is the intent and spirit of deceit...more Satanic than Jesus like!

It is interesting that you mention that you could read only 2 pages of anything a day. That is a natural and normal (if anything is natural and normal) reaction to mind control. We all had that problem on coming out, at least our group noticed it, but later we all read like we are starved. We were not allowed to read in the WWCG either. It was done through an under the table message, and really works well on most of us.

I too, am very worn out by WCg and the people. I am trying to figure out how to become whole and would like to put WCg into a little jar on a shelf. However, I think WCg has grown into my body, and I cannot separate it from me. I am in a time frame of wanting to cut off my arm, if it would get rid of the WCg. So you understand? I am still having trouble integrating the experience and putting it into its proper perspective in my life. I want to erase it, but it won't erase. I want to deny it, but it won't be denied. Somehow, I have to get it to a place of peace and rest. Somehow, I have to come to grips with all of me.

I was just glad for an excuse to stay home and cancel all the appointments. It seems so nice to be stranded at home. No pressures, except to make meals, clean and hang around. Reminded me of the days before Worldwide Church of God, when I used to be home without a car, and my life was so simple, by comparisons. I used to glory in the everyday things like just keeping my home clean, making my husband meals, and taking care of my kids. That part of me is gone. I miss it. I do not believe I can completely resurrect it. It is interesting to see the intregration process, the pain and the frustration.

XWWers are very much like a slightly healed wound. The skin might be over the wound, but if you touch it, it re opens and hurts like hell. I find that no matter how people exit, many are very touchie, judgmental, and super sensitive to criticism. They are apt to turn on one another and snap just like a mama dog with puppies. They are protecting themselves from more hurt. More often than not, they leave the area of possible hurt, dump one another (divorce), than to allow anything to hurt them again. I have seen this over and over and over. I try and not be so sensitive and love them all, but they do not all act or feel this way.

I heard about Tkach putting millions of $$$$$$$$$$ into Swiss banks a long time ago. I believe it. A new corporation in Tkach's name could be another "church". That is what it could mean. I don't believe anything Tkach and Co. say. I know that this breaking up of the Worldwide Church of God was planned and the plan is not finished yet. Worldwide Church of God is INCORPORATED as well. Incorporation was done to keep the state of CA out of their business, I believe.

Yes, I too am tired of all other offshoots. They are like little WARTS OFF THE MOTHER WART. They have all the same roots. I have been throwing out the literature. I want my home back and my life back.

I have even considered burning all the overflow. My sister wants the magazines, and I am thinking about letting her take them. Others want the stuff too, but they have to either send money for me to ship it, or pick it up. I hate to have the history erased, and the books should be kept for that reason. So I have been seriously thinking about, other than helping those that God brings to me, just getting on with my life. It is hard.

I guess I am the classic person that made Worldwide Church of God my whole life. When it is over, there is nothing in the hole. I am trying to put other things in there and fill it up!!! Do you understand? I think that I have many fewer friends and relatives than you do. I have almost no one that is left over from Worldwide Church of God, and my old friends are gone too. I have made a few (very few) new ones, but I still feel like and "alien". Sometimes this feeling is worse than other times, and now I am working at finding meaningful things to put in that hole

Good to hear from you. Take your time with the stuff I sent. No hurry. Just return it when you are finished. I have MORE. I know the feeling of not wanting to believe what I am reading. I went through that when I first got all the back issues of the AR. I hid them, because I was so ashamed of them and of the HORRIBLE things that were written in them. I identified with the church so much. I was a part of it. These things were about ME. It took a long time for me to accept the idea that the Worldwide Church of God was so horribly corrupt. I had to pray and pray for the ability to accept the idea that the church was as evil as I had believed it to be good. i.e.: God's true church. Now I had to realize it was only a figment of my mind, IMPLANTED BY MIND CONTROL. Only an ILLUSION.

I am going to copy and send the NEWSLETTER..... It is LONG. It is important for you to read that newsletter very carefully. It shows and explains the plotting between the groups. If you don't get it, it is saying that the Worldwide Church of God has created the groups for the excess Worldwide Church of God people to go to, because the Worldwide Church of God is changing itself into a modern day more "respectable" type regular "Protestant type church". Cults often do this. They submerge the original organization, mutate and change their names, and come up under many different names, thus actually PROPAGATING themselves. The Moonies are a classic case of exactly this. The "Unification" church can be found under numerous other names. Worldwide Church of God is doing exactly the same thing. This is why I want you to know that I have all the letter documentation with David Hulme corresponding with Watchman Fellowship. Hulme is acting for Worldwide Church of God, even though he wrote a letter stating that he "is resigning because of the duplicity of Tkach". Hulme was aware of all of it going on over the years. I will try and get things copied for you in the near future. I just want you to read the newsletter, and believe it. It is the real truth. I am sorry to report that, because I would love to believe that Worldwide Church of God is truly changing and bringing the people to Jesus Christ, but in fact, they are still keeping them in bondage with double messages and twisted doctrines, and emotional blackmail, and MIND CONTROL.

I am glad that your husband is reading. That in itself is a major break through of the mind control. He is giving himself permission to THINK. That is wonderful. Now he has to deal with the pain of having HIS ILLUSION go away from him. It hurts, and there is grief, as you know so well. Try and be supportive and understanding. He is going to go through emotional hell, probably. You know all this.

As far as the transcripts of HWA's divorce trial, yes, the transcripts are available, but they are costly and are only released if you have a journalism interest. I remember something about that in the AR. As far as I know, no one has those transcripts. I have asked John Trechek of AR about it, but he doesn't have them either. I think that the lawyers for HWA who were top of the line, made it pretty hard (but not impossible) for people to get them. Just because I don't know of anyone that has them, does not mean that no one does. This would be an area for your husband to research. It would be very costly, though. That is why I did not pursue it. I have the newspaper accounts of the trial, and the mentions of the incest, and HWA's own son telling me himself that it is true, plus the authors telling it, and the letters stating it. I did not need any more proof. Another thing your husband could do, is write to GTA and just tell him that GTA owes it to him to tell him the truth. GTA called me and talked to me for 1 1/2 hours, when I did just that. GTA VERBALLY TOLD ME THAT HIS FATHER HAD INCEST WTH HIS SISTER DOROTHY FOR 10 YEARS! I also have a lot of documentation about the incest, news articles from the papers, and inside memos from WWCG.

Yes, I believe the trial with HWA was public domain. I am not absolutely sure, however. If you get a transcript, I want to see it too. I know a lot about it, but have never seen any transcripts. I believe that it would be so very costly, because Worldwide Church of God dragged everything out, because they could afford millions of dollars to fight what ever they wanted to. I have spoken to a person that went through years of litigation with Worldwide Church of God before they finally settled.

Your husband's confusion is a good sign. It means that he is thinking again, and things are just not making sense, according to all that he has been told by Worldwide Church of God. The real truth will never fit with what he has been told, because Worldwide Church of God has told more lies than is comprehensible.

HWA studied all the cults and religions, before he started his own brand of "religion". He pulled doctrine from all of them. Even the "gap" theory came from ideas of the day. The British Israelism theory was not his own, the Holy Days were not his own, but he put a new meaning to them. HWA is more diabolically evil, than you want to believe at first. I did not comprehend that, until I studied the history and facts of the Worldwide Church of God.

I got copies of the first three issues of the paper "In Transition". I guess that they got the mailing list of Worldwide Church of God and the other off shoots and are sending it out to all. (INTERESTING THE NAMES OF THE MEMBERS WOULD BE SO "AVAILABLE") I can't afford to subscribe, so I will only get the papers that they send free.

Most WWers don't even have the intelligence to see that a form of the Trinity doctrine has been slipped into them unawares. I knew it would not get past your studying eyes. .

God created matter. Matter can be a Trinity. How? water=1st ice =2nd steam =3rd. Is it not reasonable that if the created can be in 3 different states and still be the same, that the Creator may not be limited as we, as men are?

The word "Trinity" became a cult buzz word. Over the centuries men have fought, killed, and died over their concept of the Trinity and their concept of God. Our bibles tell us that we cannot know the mind of God, and our wisdom is foolishness to HIM. Therefore, before you take the word of HWA and his old teachings, he was a liar also, please give yourself permission to re study the issue. Nowhere in scripture did God give the private interpretation to a man, HWA included. HOWEVER, HWA KNEW THAT THE TRINITY WAS A BONE OF CONTENTION IN MANY RELIGIONS, SO true to good old HWA ingenuity, he set up another "STRAW MAN" i.e.: the TRINITY, and knocked it down. Impressive wouldn't you think? We bought it, didn't we?

Let me explain something. WWCG taught the scriptures backwards. HWA trained us completely backwards. This should not be any surprise, because much of what he taught was just reversed from the truth. The bible is designed around one central figure...the MESSIAH. The old testament should be interpreted by the new testament, and not as the WWCG taught, interpreting the new testament by the old. Just backwards. That changes many meanings and concepts. Many concepts were twisted to fit HWA's new religion....his new product...that was his meal ticket to success like his rich friends. His religion had to be unique, so he took from many churches, and cults. First he had to discredit true Christianity, which he did through the Trinity doctrine and the Sabbath, mainly.

The correct way to look at and study scripture is to realize that the OT was always teaching and looking forward to the coming Messiah, and much was taught through the LAW which was out "tutor" to bring us....again to the Messiah...Jesus. The NT centers around His coming and his life and death and resurrection. The central message of all scripture is Jesus. WWCG falsely taught that it was the Kingdom of God, a physical kingdom that we as good robots would control. (puffed up our egos, made us arrogant, only ones with "truth", but he stole that from the Mormons and J.W."s anyway)

My information now regarding WWCG is that they are going to be teaching the truth...full grace, and go back to mainstream Christianity and Easter and Christmas. I have other info that I cannot share at this time, but I am not at all surprised about this. (I had gleaned it from the teachings of Herman Hoeh early on, and that is probably why I got kicked out, because I saw what they were going to dump upon the people and they had to weed us out so we wouldn't spill the beans until they were ready to.)

Much of the new teachings of WWCG now are more accurate. More than before under HWA. This does not negate the lies and deceit that Tkach is doing, and the abuse of the membership. Therefore WWCG still remains a cult.

However, GTA and all the offshoots took all their "wisdom" from the same liar. They are not right, nor honest either. GTA has more integrity than many of them, but you have to look at his life. He was in bed with over 200 women, by his own admission. These were nice young girls sent to AC by trusting parents, to have them taught Christian ideals. You owe it to yourself to continue to investigate and study the history of the WWCG thoroughly, because you are still under that mind control.

I think that reading all the offshoot stuff gives you a perspective on how screwed up many of the people coming out of WWCG are and do get, and you are one of them. I am one of them. You cannot deprogram without diligent work and AWARENESS of what you have come out of and how it effects you.

WWCG is changing the tithing law. I like you, underestimated these men. If you read the PGR carefully, they did not do away with the tithing, just the law. NOW you are to give even more. But it is under emotional blackmail, not "law". You learn how to "read" what comes out of the cesspool after awhile, and hear the 'true' messages.

I will tell you straight Up Front as I have always been with you, that most of what we were taught in the WWCG was plain trash and not plain truth. It will be the most compelling and rewarding search of your lifetime to unravel the lies you were taught. I will help you the best I can sending you the best of all that I have been able to study and find in the years out here, thus shortening up your deprogramming process as best I can.

You have the holy spirit to guide you and you will change your mind again and again as you weed through the tangled web that Armstrong wove into your very mind. Keep an open mind, prove all doctrinal things. Check out what other churches truly believe about things. Try and find a few ministers to confer with outside the realms of the offshoots of the WWCG. Take your time.

I wonder what you know about cults? Not much I think. We were even brainwashed in that.

I am sending you a literature list. I suggest you go to your local library and research the WWCG, HWA, and Armstrongism. Read every book that you find on the subject. You gave years and years to this organization, now you owe it to yourself to see what the outside world and ex members have to say about it. The bible sortof commands this, by telling you that you should know of the REPUTATION THAT YOUR MINISTER HAS FROM "WITHOUT". You will be amazed. Do not make hasty judgments, but really take a good look at what the thousands of witnesses have to say. The bible only asks for 2 witnesses against a "minister", but you will find thousands, if you only look.

I will pray that God continues to give you perception and His understanding in all these things.

Back to the Trinity. Over the centuries, men fought, killed, and died for that doctrine. HWA knew this. He knew that it was a fuzzy thing that could not be "proved" by the bible because the word "Trinity" is not in the bible. Men that devoted their entire lives studying the scriptures couldn't agree. He therefore used this doctrine as a "strawman" to discredit mainstream Christianity. He first had to get you to doubt mainstream Christianity, before he could steal you into his cult.

My thinking on the "Trinity" is this. My bible tells me that we cannot know the mind of God. We cannot understand Him. It is not given to us. Simple? Yes. I studied, the three persons....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Do that. I came up with a lot of questions and perspectives. If you ask a mainstream minister to explain the Trinity to you, if he is honest, he will tell you he cannot. He will admit no one understands the "Trinity". This is a given. (HWA knew this and used it diabolically.)

Now keep studying the issue. A minister I worked with explained it thus: no the word Trinity is not in the scriptures, but the concept is. I agree with that. He, however, said that no one understands God completely, and I also agree with that. I do not believe it is something that we should argue about. God as our Father would be grieved, just as we are grieved when our children fight. Often they fight over foolish things. I think this is foolish to fight over, except that the cults screw with our concept of God to gain control over us.

The Sabbath is another issue. When you really comprehend the BLOOD OF JESUS, you will comprehend the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not what you were taught either. You cannot keep the Sabbath. You in your mortal body, just simply cannot. You have never kept the Sabbath. You observe it, but you cannot keep it. I had come to realize this while I was still in Worldwide Church of God. You in fact, or any mortal cannot keep any of the 10 commandments. If you break one in any minor way, you have broken all, and the scriptures says we are all sinners, we have all broken the law, and we cannot keep it. If we say we can, we are liars. I think that is in the book of Romans. But that is another study.

We were trained to worship the Sabbath, and it is the sacred cow of the Armstrong victims.

We were had. Bilked. Milked. Lied to. Made merchandise of. Raped, body, soul and spiritually. We were incested by our "mother" the WWCG. Almost everything is lies. Remember that. Almost everything scriptural is lies that we were taught. Diabolical evil lies.

I believe we are to love one another and not judge one another. The Holy Spirit works at a different pace, with different things, with different people. We should not criticize the Holy Spirit and the work being done in one another. We should as the scriptures command, reason together and worship God with our whole being including our minds, which means we must THINK. This does not mean that we should not decern. We are TOLD to PROVE ALL THINGS, and that means who we listen to, what we believe, and no where is it written that we should get all of our "wisdom" from the bible. We are to THINK. WE ARE COMMANDED TO THINK.

One last question, how do you get "saved"? What is saved? What is salvation? How do you know you have salvation? Can you be sure you have salvation? How? Remember the cults screw with it to obtain power and control over you. This is another after cult issue.

THIS ONE SOUNDS FAMILIAR A William Brenner, author of "Dehumanizing the Vulnerable" was on, taking calls on "Open line". Was very very interesting. A therapist that uses WORDS studies and "reframing" in words called in and so did others all tying into the use of words to change the value systems and thought processes of America. He stated that it is being "purposely done". No mention of cults, but Lifton's book on the Nazi doctors was brought up by a caller. Our time is now being noted and compared to the pre-Hitler era.

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