Worldwide Church of God: Email: Sweet and Sour, Page TwentyFive

You did a nice job with the "Dead on the Inside". I'd like to thank Sharon for her response to it. She saw exactly the parallel to the wcg experience as I know existed, and still does, both in churches and schools, and other organizations.

We are a SHAME-BASED society. The POWER OVER position berates us and treats us less than human. To be treated as though we were supposed to be MORE THAN human i.e. GOD, also dehumanizes us. This demeanor is what those who feel powerLESS do to make them FEEL more powerFUL. We can only hope that those who rule, will grow and mature to be fully human, and recognize our equality, and value to each other.

The author of that article is a dear friend and unique Counselor. He also does know the wcg very well. Sharon, I also want to say how much I enjoy your posts and comments. Ed 's site has brought many good people together, to serve a good purpose and give us all more meaning to life. Thanks again to you both.

Hi Ed, yes you are right, our new computer is giving us hell,but why let things such as punctuation,spelling, acronyms, contractions,conjunctions,cloud your mind. As Shakespeare once wrote at the top of one of his works, (.,;;;,../?-;; place them where you will) but the the thought comes to mind , (not many wise, not many great are called of this world)but we won't go there now. We don't like the ministers any more than you do, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water Ed.A group of scientists have started to question some of the principles of science at last we were wondering how long it would be before some of the so called brains of this world would admit the error of their way, q, (our own solar system is the complete embodiment of perfection, roads point to some sort of creator) Try reading a bit more .Do you really trust in the big bang theory, even these men are not so sure now, and as to the idea that we came from some sort of monkey family, well, you may, but Iprefer to think otherwise, only a fool says in his heart there is no God. proverbs. in Christian love. Ray.

You obviously have not read my FAQ or much of the rest of my site. How many times do I have to deal with "the baby with the bathwater" clich,? Is that all the "great brainwashed" can think of when confronted with a person that is able to think through what they believe?

If you have anything to say after you read ALL of the FAQ, fine. Otherwise, just go away in your smug, self-assured, unproven, blind, Christian "rightness," swallowing the bathwater instead of throwing it out, thinking there is actually a baby in it, when there isn't.

Since you deny the written Word-you also deny the Living Word,(GOD). How can you base your relgion on any "Being"without a foundation? The Foundation is Christ. Now my proof for myself is answered prayer according to His promises in the written Word,(I have no trouble getting answers to my prayers). The reason that Worldwide Church of God did was because they were not rooted and grounded in Christ. They followed a man and d/t their idolatrous relationship with him-God fulfilled II Thes 2:8-10 in that church just as He does in any group that seeks to know Him thru "works of the flesh" or "traditions of men". God is a very awesome Being that does not need for us to believe in Him, and there is nothing that we can do to impress Him. The Old Testament was written in order for man to know that if he truly wanted a relationship with God he would have to do it God's Way.

Since you look for a god out in the world you may find the "god" of HWA if you are not careful. The "powers of darkness"are there and are more than willing to take over your thinking in very "subtle" ways. This is why Christ used the written Word as His defense. Satan is able to take us in any way he chooses if we do not seek the protection of the God of "truth".

What we did not realize in the Worldwide Church,(nor have the scattered churches),is that nothing we did,(or can do),will count with God. He wants to do a "work"in us. Nothing that we do,(or can do),canor will take us thru the resurrection. We are not acceptable in that way. It is Christ in us and the Grace of God that takes us thru the resurrection. But this Grace is not given to those who continue to nail his Son to that cross by continuing in sin.

Too many approach God from a negative viewpoint,(not unlike your own). That is "God if you want me you are going to have to take me as I am-because what you see is what you get." But God says,"You need to seek Me-and you shall find Me when you shall search for Me with all of your heart." This is a promise!! He does not need you or what you can do for Him,(which the churches have not understood). He WANTS your heart and then like the "Potter" He makes you a new less hostile nature. But as He told King Asa-"God is for you while you are for Him. If you forsake HimHe will forsake you." This is what happened in Worldwide. Though He initiates the relationship -you have to follow upby pursuing Him,(like a suitor). Then He does something wonderful-in fulfilling His promises. He reveals Himself to you personally-just as Christ promised the disciples that He would do. It really happens!! And He gives you the "ear"that Christ spoke of and the Word of truth comes alive in wonderful revelation. Not only does He reveal Himself as to where He is in you-but also,where you fit in the Spiritual Body.

But this happens to you in a very personal way,(between you and Him),because you become His "temple" in the Spiritual Covenant,and He is there and "manifests Himself"-just as He promised. This is one reason that Worldwide Church of God was the actual "defilement of the temple". Remember the "organizational chart"that HWA came up with -placing himself between God and His People. He was actually claiming the position of Christ-as High Priest and ONLY mediator between God and His people! This is why God scattered the church. God scatters His enemies as David said in the Psalms. We became His enemies when we gave priority to HWA's plagerized doctrines over Scripture. Deuteronomy was a love letter written by God for Israel. But she rejected Him and sought her own idols just as spiritual Israel does today-and He hid His Face from her and turned His Back on her. Like then -she again becomes the "whore",(Rev.17:3-5),who rejects her Husband,(God).

I'm sorry Myra, you are too brainwashed for me to want to have any more communication with you. And being brainwashed does not mean that your brain is clean. It is warped and dirty with the religious filth of men. I pity you.

In the latest Time mag, on line, there is a section depicting the "Phonies and Frauds of the Century."

Since religion has an enormous pull in this country, it's managed to get TIME to delete any criticism of such charlatans.

Please note the SECOND paragraph. Anyhow, this is for your info. Unfortunately, "religion" still has a helluva lot of power. No wonder Nietzsche called it the "Anti-Christ."

What hypocrites. Offended supporters? Maybe they should be held in contempt for their religious beliefs if they followed charlatans, liars, con-artists, etc. They should be so embarrassed that they don't let it happen again. Seems like Time is having a hard Time of explaining why they bow down to religious pressure.

I wonder how high on the list herbie was? When you think about the amount of time he was in control and the number of lives he screwed up and changed irretrievably, and the number of people that will have their whole life affected, and their children's lives and their grandchildren's lives................, and there are still many branches of his cult and his beliefs still messing people up. Well, it has to add up to quite a crime against humanity.

Right, Ed.. Hard to believe isn't it? But IF what I once heard was true, then we can indeed understand where they're coming from. Time is supposedly part owned by the Catholic Church. It's all biz, and the real people (like us) are inconsequential debris to those tares.

P.S. I tried to find that article again at 1300 hrs., but it appears they've removed it from their site.

They'll probably keep this page here now, since the Pope and his minions have had their way. Herbie would be delighted . . . wherever the hell he is (literally).

Although your site was not very well put together, I did get the idea. I could not get the articles offered to load up, but the titles were revealing. I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God, and one who predicted the split. One thing that I have never forgotten, though I no longer attend any of the churches, is that I learned to care for the truth. My life taught me that I can't blame those who taught me the best they knew how for being wrong. We are all learning and growing. It is a part of being human.

Being bitter is a big mistake. Forgiveness is quiet, and humble. Love suffers long and endures all things. Your web site effectively tells everyone that no matter what you have become, one thing that you have not become is more Christian than you were before. Use what you learned and move on.

Well, you are certainly very perceptive to not be able to read any of my pages but you are able to judge my spiritual condition and label me as bitter. At least you could read the material with my name on it and then label me as bitter. Just because you are incompetent at using your computer, (I have not had anyone else tell me they have trouble accessing the pages), does not mean that I am guilty without a trial. "He who judges a matter before he hears it......................"

Just for your information I am sending along my FAQ page in text format. Naturally many links will not work.

I suppose that you would tell historians not to write history books because we may learn how bad people can be when given power.

I got this mail from someone named Todd recently. He alerts us to a website of a Worldwide Church of God person that has a PT website link contained within it. The gentleman was a deacon in the Worldwide Church of God and left in 1996. Thought you might want to take a look at it. It was how he found the PT site:

"The Painful Truth" by Ed Graphically, the page sucks, and it is almost impossible to navigate; however, if you have the patience, it is a wealth of material about the abuse suffered by members over the years.

I'm preparing another submission for your site, Ed. I've been doing a lot of reading lately and found something interesting to share.

And I thought that the graphics were the only good thing about the site. :-) I see Ken has very great graphics and has 472 hits in 6 months on his index page. Well, I am going to have to contact him and find out what I am doing wrong.

Yeah, I hate it that it takes so long to load all those images, but, as I have said, its the only fun I get out of this. So, if people don't like it, they don't have to come to my page. I think the pull down menu solved a lot of navigation problems. Just recently learned how to do it. Finally got a full fledged html program. Kept figuring this would just die down and I would pickup another hobby and I didn't want to be wasting my money on some program that I wouldn't need.

A contributor to The Painful Truth sent me a link to your page where you give a "review" of the PT and a link to my site.

If you thought the Graphics sucked before, you won't like them any more now, but I did put a dropdown list of all 347 first pages to make it easier for people to find things. Will also be working on categorizing the list.

The Apology page is now open to former Deacons if you are ever inspired to put your name on it. https://members.tripod.com/~ejm/apology.htm

Personally, I have a slow (28k) modem and it takes weeks to download your site, so I don't do it often.

I look forward to the day we can all get on with our lives and leave Worldwide Church of God behind us (maybe sometime before I die in the next 50 years)

Is your website safe for New Year? Do you have all the stuff saved in case the internet goes out? I think you should print it out in books to save it.

Thanks for your concern. I back up the data every week or so on CD's. So the site is preserved for posterity as long as we can access a computer. If we can't, its every man or woman for herself. I have 498 pages according to FreeFind which spiders my site for searches. Too much to print out.

Two or three weeks after bringing his fifth child into the world, my father's legendary infidelities rendered my mother outside of herself emotionally. My father promptly committed her to a facility that specializes in conditions such as hers and in her absence filed for divorce. He placed the five of us in various homes throughout our community, and proceeded to marry the newest object of his desire; a sweet, young religious girl with Christian values that demanded marriage before pleasure. He felt honored by her innocent ardor and was more than happy to forget the past and get on with his life. His new bride bore him two very beautiful and charming daughters. I saw very little of my father after he left me at age five crying on the steps of my new foster "home." But instead of selfishly crying and giving my dad a rear view mirror guilt trip, I should have been happy for him, as he was finally discovering happiness again, after all those bitter years of fighting with my pleading mother.

Anyway, later when I had an opportunity to talk alone with my father, I opened up my heart and told him that as much as I loved my two younger half-sisters, I felt a personal loss that I did not have the kind of relationship with him that they did. He loved them tenderly, and it showed. His response was interesting, "Dana, I know that I let you kids down. That's why I treat the girls so well. I am trying to make it up to them, by giving them what I didn't give you."

Boy, that made me feel better. I sure was glad to have that little misunderstanding cleared up. So as I was trying to explain my feelings to my husband the only way I could was this:

Okay. Most of your life you have been doing all of your shopping for goods and services at Sears. As the years go by you accrue an enormous debt, to which you make regular token payments. But you get tired of shopping just at Sears and start looking for a newer, fresher store to shop at, and lo, and behold, you find one. You say to yourself, I was wrong to have been shopping at Sears. I wasn't happy shopping at Sears. I now see how right it is to be shopping at Montgomery Wards. From henceforth, I shall shop at Montgomery Wards (but not exclusively).

So the day comes when Sears says, "Shopper, now that you no longer shop with Sears we would like you to pay your debt in full."

But, you say, "I now shop at Wards and have up to now made all the required token payments on your account, and since I now shop at Wards all further payments on the outstanding balance to Sears will now be made to Wards. Sears was old and boring, but Wards fulfills my needs."

Basically, what I wanted to say to my father was, "What you are giving my two younger sisters is only what you owed them from the day they were born. Your debt to me is still outstanding, but even small amounts of love, fondness and devotion would be highly valued."

So, what has this to do with the world wide church of god? Mr. Armstrong repeatedly called us his children. We were family, he told us again and again. We weren't contributing financially just to a church, but to the growth and well-being of our spirit begotten family. And who was the head of the family? Herbert Armstrong? No, we were told. God the Father was supposedly the head of the family represented on earth by the world wide church of god. Mr. Armstrong was the "good" steward God was using until the glorious return of His son, Jesus Christ, we were taught.

But as we will all agree, Herbert Armstrong died before the return of Christ, and others took over stewardship of the "body of Christ." But, you say, the beliefs and practices changed. We no longer venerate Mr. Armstrong's teachings.

And I say to you, you say that you no longer keep the teachings and practices of Herbert Armstrong, BUT you sure as HELL don't mind keeping the money that his teachings and practices put into your bank accounts!!!!! You won't keep the practices, but you will keep the money. You slimy hypocrites!

The wcg believes that it is not important to care for the needs of its first "children." If you need food, go to the Salvation Army. If you need emotional restoration, seek assistance from your local county's mental health program. If you need financial assistance in your waning years, well, tough @#$%!, there will be no inheritance for you! All the money that you sent in to contribute to the well being of your family will be lavished upon your brothers and sisters that were and are lucky enough to be beloved by the "good steward" of god's church, whomever that may be at the time. The only thing that has changed, my dear, is the rhetoric. The spirit is the same. The older children continue to be treated like unwanted bastards, while tender fondness's are lavished upon the new. But mine is the bitterness that perhaps only an old Mormon wife or older world wide church of god member could understand. The world wide church of god has changed? I THINK NOT!

P.S. One last thought. Don't be a fool. The woman in whose company my father finally died was not his devoted second wife.

After I heard that UCG members in Southern California actually thought their pets were demon possessed, I thought up that little satire. I think they are blithering idiots, so the sarcasm was particularly rude. It took some doing though....

The cat actually gets a bath in the bathtub. I'm no where delusional enough to try to give two cats a bath at the same time. No detergent, just shampoo.

Oh, I do hope you know that the only thing serious about the dispossession of the cat article is the fact that there are a lot of religious nuts in the world, not a few of which attend Churches of God.

If the ministry of the Churches of God were so all fired up about the Year 2000 problems, why did they use it to create fears, uncertainties, and doubts? Should they not have asked their members to fast and pray about the problem that through His great mercy and kindness, that God, the Father would take pity on His children of the world and help us through it? And why would they not invite people of the world to join with them to engage a sincere godly petition to our Creator in their publications and flagship magazine, not to mention their telecasts? If they were only using tactics to scare up more business to make money, that would be one thing, but with their obvious sincerity and concern for humanity, how is it they missed an opportunity to show forth their faith in God's graciousness?

I have started reading "Why People Believe Weird Things" and have pondered the existence of a god, and I am leaning on the concept of rejecting the theory! It is senseless and a joyless proposition, however evidence lead toward that conclusion. I wish I never had a interest in religion, not to mention, got involved with those armstrongites! Sooo.. much pain and suffering that those people inflicted, and it continues with little joe and his cohorts, all for the quest for money!!! Those bastards, if only they could get their just deserving punishment in this life, THEN I would consider it equal between me and THEM, yet not equal for the misery and mental disease that they continue to inflict on others, past to date!! If there was a god, it would not put up with this tormental bullshit!

Thanks for responding to my articles. I finally feel safe enuf to put my email on Ed's site. I appreciate the feedback. I don't know how long you were in, or out of wwc, but recovery will take a long time. I am out 7 years,(23 in), and finally at peace with myself, tho' I hope I never recover completely so as to not forget to be on guard and warn others.

As far as believing in God, I haven't let go yet, since I still believe all things need a Cause, or Source. God is a Symbol, and a Concept that will always need to be explained. I think it is up to each of us to make a choice that is comfortable to live with. To me it still is a source of hope, not faith to believe in God and perhaps another life beyond this one. I just do not know.

With that, I choose not to let it stop me from enjoying this life, and make it a better place to live for me and others. I takes help to learn how to think differently than before. My belief and value system has changed. I've had help long before leaving wcg from a good friend who is a mental health counselor. He got me into Transactional Analysis...remember "I'm OK You're OK"? That is how I learned to think in a much healthier way. It helps to learn how to cope and deal with emotional pain. It works for me.

Another good book is "Born To Win" by Muriel James" Once we understand ourselves, we are better able to understand others. As far as vengeance or retribution on those who inflict pain then and now, again I choose not to dwell on the power of my anger in that direction. It is fruitless, and only works against me. I turn my anger in a positive direction as we are now in exposing them and comforting those who suffer. We can't change anyone, yet we can change ourselves.

I'm working on an article to help us get to understand the power we all have and haven't learned to use.....The power of CHOICE. Esp. conscious choice, and learning to live in the "here on now". Today is all we have, and what we focus on we give power to. Think on that for awhile. It is a good feeling to have power. The key is how we choose to use it.

Sorry to go on and on...hope I have been helpful. Feel free to keep in touch. Let me know if I can let Ed post your note and my response.

Thank you for asking permission to forward the response to Ed's site. Yes you may!

As far as retribution goes, consider this: If Hitler's General's managed to kill the crazy bastard, countless lives could have been spared! If Stalin was murdered by one of his "yes men" countless lives could have been saved! If herbert the child molester could have been ran over by a truck, or beat over the head with a baseball bat, or was murdered by a "wana be apostle" within the hack-a-berry ministry, or even more of a justified punishment, caught AIDS from one of his whores, countless lives could have been spared BILLIONS of precious hard earned pre-taxed retirement destined dollars for all involved!

In the scheme of life on this rock, it seems the needs of a stable society, with mental balance and a decency toward mankind, should have a beginning point. The elimination of blood sucking scum such as the cog's ministry's, would be a first step toward a movement for a well adjusted and prosperous society!

If I seem angry, well it is so! Those bastards deserve death because of all the damage they have done! There is NO GOD. NO! Let little jr. and the rest of the minions stand as a testimonial, along side with Hitler and Stalin and countless others that kill and butcher and maim their fellow man, all for the sake of an ideology or M$$$$Y!

Where is the loving god that saves? Where is the loving god that allowed 53 million to perish in the second WW? Asleep at the wheel? Must be so, if you believe in god!

Thank you for your message however, I know that you and countless others will recover from your experience. The question that wakes me up at night is this: When, and at what point, will this craziness end? These poor suckers in the various splinter groups go on and on and on with the most asinine arguments, yet miss the most important question: Does god employee child molesters, thieves, the mentally ill, or overpaid nazi's to do his bidding?

The solution to the demise of these cults might start with a lesson in all public schools. The reading of "The Age of Reason" would be a great start! Got to go, it is another day of work to get ready for, and you know what? No vermin minister will get a damn red cent of it!!! Looking forward to your next article Joanne, thanks for the ear!!

I have not been to your site for over six months, but I just wanted to comment on the new improvements. My ribs are sore, and my stomach hurts from laughing. I think I am beginning to heal. Keep up the good work!

I hope my parody of a response did not alarm you. It is sometimes hard to tell when someone is joking around when it is in print.

We have a part Bengal kitty (miniature Asian leopard downbred with domestic house cat very meaty very strong!) in our house, and the last time we tried to give puddin a flea bath, he ripped both sliding glass doors off of their tracks and squeezed open an overhead window that was only open about one-half inch when he fled the bathroom. Talk about puss possession! Kittykins was possessed with a sincere desire to never bathe again!!!!! He won. Then I saw your article and I thought, "Of course! A washing machine! Now I can wash TWO cats at once without getting flayed to the bone!" So naturally, I was seeking advice...ha!

As I pointed out, front loading washers are best. And you are right, two work better because they balance the spin cycle. [I discussed this with a guy at Radio Shack when getting the Terminator--he volunteered to bring over his cat for washing!] A good Kenmore bath followed by a Tormentor chase can do wonders for that cat "attitude". They're just wonderful after you get them to come off the top of the kitchen cabinets--kind of limp and compliant.

Now if we could get front loading washers big enough for the fat cats of the Churches of God, we'd have something... and I think I just might know two who could balance the spin cycle; three could work. Anyway, I think the article could really help them.... A little bleach and they could have white raiment as well; it's all so... Biblical. Though you're cinch be as scarlet, your cummerbund could be white as snow. I guess I've gotten downright disrespectful in my old age: I actually think of them as equals or less these days. [I'll send my response to Jr. soon.] Whad'ya think?

By the way, with computer projects, we don't do implementations any more, we do deployments. That's important when we stand in line at the deployment office to get our deployment checks after we lose our jobs.... Yes, our Permits system is online to the Internet--and we can schedule you for next day for inspections--and what's really great about the system is that Ray's program deletes the inspections at the same time they are scheduled! Talk about efficiency!

Just read your commentary under "Bitter". You can count me as one who is thankful that you have this page. One line in

"Bitter" mentioned Jesus chasing out the moneychangers. It struck me at once that HWA, Tkach Sr.& Jr., Holladay, Reedy (the "ex" & me gave $40,000 while 15 years in Bethlehem -Wilkes-Barre), Kilough, & Demarest & the other cowards were the true moneychangers. I specifically did not mention Ben Johnson because in 15 years he was the only real man that Pasadena sent us. Perhaps that's why they let him go so early. I realize I have only myself to blame for being suckered by the above mentioned con artists/cowards. But what is so fascinating is how these people can force the tithing (including a 3rd tithe schedule) down our throats while lying (it's difficult for me to use capitals as in the wcg literature) that it was going to widows and orphans. It was in the early 90's that a friend who had as a father, a local elder, told me of the scheme. While I found out the that the money was going to their salaries, I am incensed (really hard not to insert caps)to learn now, that the funds went to their retirement also.

Retirement! Indeed! Just what did these cowards do to earn retirement? Lie? Scheme? Threaten? Lie? Coerce? Lie? I can only speak for those who who left wcg in their 40's only to find no savings, retirement, jobs, schooling, home, college fund for kids, etc., and then having to start all over again.

While the cowards had salaries, new cars, cathedral ceiling homes, best rooms, best seats, etc., some members that they lied to were living with cardboard for wallpaper.

The only true justice would be for an enterprising attorney in the calif. AG's office to take the Pasadena site and its assets and give it to charity.

I really like your new "Page Index for the Painful Truth Website." It is amazing to see just how much material you have packed into you website.

Here it is the last day of the millennium. I am reflecting on the people I have encountered over just the last year. There have been many, but you and the contributors to the "Painful Truth" really stand out in my mind the most.

I thank you for the uncountable hours that you have spent sorting through hundreds of postings each week in an effort to provide validation and support to hundreds of people who literally have no place else to turn.

I thank you for trudging on ahead in spite of enormous criticism from people we would have once laid down our lives for, and in many cases actually did.

May your courage and perseverance continue to be both a blessing and a cursing (depending, of course, on the mindset of the reader) for many years to come. Warmest Regards,

Sometimes the people that don't understand can really get me down. I get so tired of the "bitterness" accusations and "get on with your life" stuff. I don't write email to the publishers at other sites with opposing views. I, basically, hardly even visit those sites of those who do agree with me.

These accusers are really not worried about me or my spiritual condition or anyone else, for that matter. They are worried that I may be making an impact and they are, deep down inside, afraid that I may be right. Apparently they don't trust in their God enough to just leave people alone that have a different viewpoint.

Never ever, Ellen would I want to make your existence or your reality in the WWCg cult any less than the evil it was. I am so sorry that your parents were not able to realize and not abuse as they did.

This letter on Ed's page was taken from a letter I wrote my Nephew. He did not believe WWCg as "bad" as I was trying to tell him. His parents were not as abusive as yours were. Therein lays the 'misunderstanding' if you will, as to my words.

I truly believe that the WWCg was a heinous, evil, incestuous, baby beating cult. I wrote somewhere in the letter, I think, or something else that I wrote on the site, about even being taught to beat our babies. So no way am or would I try and minimize your experience or anyone else's experience in the WWCg cult.

The good thing about this reaction from you is that I hope your e-mail to me is on the site, as another testimony as to the horrors suffered at the hands and by the instructions of the WWCg cult.

I am very willing to communicate with you, but please do not share my e-mail, or I will be forced to change my address. I will only be able to communicate with a few. I now am able finally after 9-10 years in recovery, to work. The WWCg almost destroyed me, my mind, my marriage, and my husband and my family. I never ever want to minimize the effect of the cult on anyone. So please take this as my humble apology. I never want to minimize the evil of the cult or the damage it has reaped all over the globe. I am sorry you suffered so, glad you found a therapist, and glad you have been able to have a life, (some don't) and glad you found the site and glad that you sounded off.

With a special understanding ....yours here......an ex abused member of the WWCg cult.

The article on child abuse is good for people like me who were spanked when we were little when we did something that our parents in the church hated. Like I said before my parents thought I was demon possessed and wanted to spank it out of me. Spanking makes us hurt more than we do. I had splinters in me all the time.

Your contributions to this page are more than welcome. If you don't appear to give me permission, I will not publish your full name.
(But if you attack me and make threats, then you go on the "Hate Mail" page and I will publish your name and email address.)

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