Worldwide Church of God: Email: Sweet and Sour, Page TwentySeven

Why would a loving Christian church really ignore its members, rather than reaching out to help a person in their time of need i.e.... a time of doubt?

Why would a loving Christian church hold a funeral for one of its members and never mention their name or acknowledge that they even existed and then turn the funeral into a sermon for the church members?

Why would a loving Christian church tell their members that they could only drive white automobiles? They we the only chosen ones? They were the only true church?

Why would a loving Christian church minister stand up in front of a congregation and tell them "That your position in heaven is determined by you much you gave in offering"?

Why would a loving Christian MALE church member (right in front of her) make fun of the meal your wife just spent numerous hours preparing just for him and other "so-called" church friends?

I'm at work and I'm trying very hard to suppress my laughter, but it's a bit difficult! This stuff is hysterical! I do know where Big Sandy, TX is as I grew up there! Argh!

Why don't you add to the list: Your father has taken the family out to dinner and, only after ordering cheeseburgers for everyone, realizes that this day is a day of Unleavened Bread and asks the waitress to please bring the cheeseburgers without the bread!

Yes, this did happen, and somehow, only I, who was about 10, was embarrassed! And, to this day, I can remember the the complete look of befuddlement and confusion on the waitresses' face.

I sent this letter to Richard Purdom in reply to some of his inanities. If you still want to add anything to his section of email, feel free to post this on the site. I originally copied you when sending, but put ".com" instead of ".net" so it came back undelivered, and in this broken form. Maybe, if you post, you can correct? Sorry about that!

No, Richard, it's not a matter of Ed having to find some scapegoat, some target, that all his life is about is finding something to attack. By your logic, we should also quit berating Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin and Pol Pot. You don't let evil enter into rest by letting it lie.

The Worldwide Church of God system was wrong, and more often than not psychologically destructive, a terrible wrencher of people's lives. Yes, those who joined made the decision to do so, but only at the seduction and lies and manipulations of HWA, the leadership, and the barking guard dogs of the ministry.

We have a right to be angry about the years taken from us, about the abuse we suffered in various guises, and about the gut-wrenching efforts we have made in our own ways to finding healing and sanity.

The PT site is very much a catharsis for many of us. You accuse us of hanging on to bitterness; let me assure you that the venting that occurs on the PT site is a preventative against being consumed by bitterness, because we can let it out and get rid of it.

We want and need the education, elucidation, and encouragement of others who have come through the same system. Maybe you should try to see it from our perspective--you might actually find it worth wild.

Yes, I confess I was one of those unhappy sycophants, fully indoctrinated into the Mysteries of the worldwide church of God. I surely did not meet Him there. I have a question: do you know of any statement by HWA's daughter confirming his abuse of her? I have never seen any, my reason for wanting to know is that it would make sense of some of the suffering I witnessed in that organization, sexual abuse to be exact. Shit rolls downhill, as it were.

I have not heard from anybody who has talked to her and gotten documented evidence. I couldn't imagine asking her such a thing. She is still alive though, as far as I know. She could have saved him at any time by denying that it ever happened. She has never done that. Maybe a way to approach her would be to ask her if she would sign a statement denying that it ever happened so as to clear herbie's tarnished reputation. If she refused, that would be evidence, I would think. But not to the True Believers.

I wouldn't bother the poor woman myself. If we think herbie screwed up our lives, what the hell did he do to her life? But, as she said he told her: "God gave you to me." And we can assume that he also thought that "God gave US to him." The results are the same: he screwed us all.

Your site is very well done and certainly is a good find for many people who were in the Worldwide Church of God. Sometimes when reading it I cannot stop laughing. My wife asks what's wrong with me. She wasn't in the Worldwide Church of God. I guess she'll never be able to relate to this stuff. That's probably a good thing. I envy people who can look at us and think we're strange because they don't understand what we're up against.

Sometimes your responses to general mail in the Sweet and Sour part of the site, however, can be a bit sarcastic and condescending. Now I realize that your patience can wear thin with people like Jose, who remarked that your stench offended his nostrils even though you disclaimed not believing in the words of the bible in the FAQ section. But other people get some wise-crack answers, too.

Are you patient with all people writing to the site, or is patience not part of the site's objective? Certainly anyone writing the hate mail is only deserving of a big backlash but others may not be.

I just wanted to give you some food for thought. But any impatience is offset by those cool graphics you post.

My patience does run out. You may be referring to the last of my series of emails with Myra. I kept trying to be nice to her and recommended in a very tactful way that she read the Bibliolatry page but she continued to throw her bible quotations at me. I had had enough and felt like she disrespected me and is completely wacked out on her bible beliefs, so I told her so and then blocked any further communication with her.

I will generally respond in the same manner as I am addressed, probably just like you. But you probably don't get as much mail from strangers as I do, lots of them questioning my integrity just because they don't want to believe the truth when they finally hear it. I don't go out of my way to be nasty to people. When you are dealing in email messages, you will find that they are very impersonal and are not the same as talking face to face where you can see expressions and hear inflection and how something is said to judge what a person truly means.

Lots of hatemail I don't even bother responding to because I don't like having to think of all the things that have to be said to put the person in their place. And it has already all been said before. I don't know of many answers to questioners that can't be found on the FAQ page.

And it would probably be a good idea not to write me a lot of criticism or throw any email darts my way on a day where I have just been reading some idiot's hatemail.

You don't get it do you? everything that HWA show us was how not to be a Bastard! So all those Sabbath's that you sat there and did not listen you were aborting your self out of the family of God,Oh I know you say you don't care what I think,butt I know that when you are in bed at night by your self some were in that pea brain of yours you know that you wrong!

With out the True God you are Bastard You see HWA made God real to those that listened. You see I'm not a Bastard any more because I listened to " HERBY " as you call him! Oh and that does not make me better than you, it just make me not be bastered!!! Hey ED some thing must have been right about Worldwide Church of God are you would not be attacking it the way you are!! only Satin would attack the True Man of God right!?! Look at Job!! look forward to seeing on that Last Great Day, Are I pray Sooner

P.S. Fill free to do what you want with this letter, I'm glad to be in a "cult" at lest it is on the side that wins in the end!

Im the guy that thinks that your a basterd! I see that you have a more lies in this web site! Mr.. Meredith did not leave the Church in the 70's he left in 93.

If you want to prove me wrong, you have to stop calling me names and quote the page and possibly where on the page you are referring to. I have over 500 pages.

I will just block your messages if you continue to be so, well, "Christian", in that you would love to kill your imaginary enemies. I am not your enemy. You have a great opportunity of shutting down some web pages of mine, if you can just act in a manner that would honor your God and not make him ashamed of you.

This guy has written me a couple of uncomplimentary emails now and I am about to cut him off. I think he may be referring to something you wrote. Do you have any details on Meredith in this regards?

I don't know everything this guy might be griping at, but Rod Meredith was disfellowshipped in 1979-1980, sent to Hawaii to live in a comfortable home in the suburb of Hawaii Kai (near Waikiki). He did so on full expenses, and although Cheryl Meredith (his wife) was allowed to attend services, he was barred. We saw her there with the kids at the time. They had services on the third floor of the YWCA in downtown Honolulu, and we held CG7 services on the second floor.

The reason for this disfellowship is that Meredith had taken control (in 1979) of the Pastoral Administration Department and was running the whole shee-bang like Hitler. It was loyalty (the way Meredith saw it) to the system . . . or else. There were to be no questions asked. Blind loyalty was IN . . . and any free thinking was OUT.

Rader saw that Meredith was causing all sorts of division in the ministry, and Rader needed those ministers as salesmen for the cult and the tithes. Rader also knew that, if you scattered the ministry, you'd scatter the tithes. Since Meredith continued to run the department like he did in the sixties (just like Hitler), and since he was such a divisive ego-maniac (like Herbert), Rader had no choice but to get rid of this wild man in order to save the ministry, restore some confidence in those salesmen, and let them know they weren't going to be "shot in the foot " for even asking questions. The paranoia in the ministry had now "topped out," and Meredith needed to be "de-fused."

But Meredith, like GTA before him, decided to challenge Rader. That was the mistake that they both made. Rader, it was reported, went back to HWA, as he had done many times with people he wanted to get rid of, and told Herbie that Meredith was "disloyal." He had done the same with GTA, telling Herbie that GTA wanted control of the church (which he indeed did), and as such HWA erupted, and let Rader have control to administer whatever justice was needed. The ONE thing HWA could never stomach was disloyalty to him, and any attempt to wrestle control of the Worldwide Church of God from him. That's the real and ONLY reason GTA was disfellowshipped the first time as well, and it had NOTHING to do with adultery. I got that from a family member. It was a power struggle, and GTA's sexual improprieties were only an excuse. In challenging Rader, Meredith predictably lost, and since Rader now had control of the finances, he cut off Meredith. But a deal was made, since many brethren still liked Meredith. Meredith left the body, cooled off on full expenses, and returned IF he gave allegiance to Rader. A depressed and defeated Meredith bought the deal. And thus he had left the fold and had been shipped to Hawaii.

As such, he was "out" of the church for months. He returned, only after he and other minions signed a contract with Rader (basically a contract of loyalty), and they were then admitted back into the cult. In those days, Rader had Herbert's ear, and as such, Rader called the shots. Herbert was either too inebriated or stupid to discern anything properly, and thus Rader was the "power behind the throne." Plus I heard that Rader was blackmailing Herbert with info on many of the trips, the Lochner tapes, etc. I don't know the actual date that Meredith left to start GCG, but the date of 1993 sounds about right.

Hats off to Michael for his article "Y7K" Another independent verification that the Worldwide Church of God did, indeed, set dates. THEY DID SET DATES!!!

The stuff that Mr. Irvin reports hearing in sermons as a kid is exactly the same shit that I heard. The only difference is that he apparently was confident that he would actually go to the POS (a fictional paradise commonly believed to be Petra). I never believed I would get to go. Matter of self-esteem, I'm sure.

So, to those idiots out there who maintain to this day that the church "never taught" this or that--YES THEY DID! They taught it, we believed it, and we are witnesses to that fact. You Worldwide Church of God apologists can't change the truth, so GET OVER IT!!!

Thanks to Mr. Irvin for telling his story. I would like to personally encourage him to contribute a lot more. I suspect he has volumes to tell.

I've been noticing that a lot of the letters you've been getting lately concern those who are attacking the expression of your personal beliefs with zeal and venom. Once again I want to offer my sincere appreciation and gratitude for all the hard work you have done with the website and your devotion to exposing the truth. Most importantly, whenever I read your comments on the effect being raised in Worldwide Church of God has had on the children of the cult I am profoundly moved that someone understands that our experience is vastly different from that of adults who willingly (to a certain extent) chose to enter Herb's church.

I, too, recently experienced the backlash that comes from expressing a valid opinion and was stunned at the voracity with which I was attacked by supposed "Christians". I recently posted my name and my husband's name on a website set up for alumni of Ambassador College as a way to keep in touch with long lost friends. The college, however, is listed as "Ambassador University" and discussion was raised that perhaps there could be a separate site for AC-Pasadena as it never operated under the name "University". Having graduated from AC-Big Sandy in 1989, the last year it operated as "College" I posted a note with my two cents that I'd like to see the name as "Ambassador College/University" since the institution operated for only a relatively few years as "University" and there may be alumni who will never happen upon this site if it was titled as "AU".

I should have strapped myself into my chair in front of the computer because I was almost blown away with the speed at which the nasty, snide, critical e-mails came flying in! Obviously the smug, know-it-all, holier-than-thou, self-important attitudes are alive and well in the next generation. It really struck me how much we were indoctrinated to believe that we were special because we had knowledge no one else had. This obviously created a group of pompous people who believed they knew better in ALL aspects of life, not just religion. This experience was reminiscent of a pack of wild animals turning on the weaker member in order to destroy it. And who exactly is supposedly roaming the earth like a lion, ready to devour? Obviously it's the rabid "Christians" who have taken over that job.

It's difficult to comprehend how completely and utterly we were and these people are now continuing to be brainwashed. Independent thought of any kind is perceived as the ultimate threat to their survival. It seems to me that mature, well-adjusted people who are secure in their beliefs and possess that inner peace that comes with such confidence have no need to seek, attack and destroy others. Ultimately, it seems that pity is the appropriate response for those who seem to have a need to attack free thought and individual expression, even though they are annoying as hell! How miserable it must be to live such a paranoid life where any expression of opinion which differs from what the cult has fed you is perceived as a personal threat to your very existence.

I am sorry that they choose you as their personal target, also, when clearly your website is a wonderful collaboration of many free minds and independent thinkers. Again, their cult mentality shows through...they cannot conceive that a group of people could freely assemble their thoughts and opinions without the guidance of a "leader" to show them the way. In a sense, Ed, you've become the "Anti-Herb"!! You should be proud!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again...it feels good not to have all the answers any more!!

Who would have ever thought that anyone would be "proud" of their AC "education?" And to think that they think that there was really any difference between University and College. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessshhhhhhhhhhhhh. Shows they didn't learn anything.

I have two sons that graduated from AC and they wish they had never heard of the place. Both are very successful in spite of their AC degrees.

Your experience with the message forum is typical. Can be very vicious sometimes. Many people may agree with you completely but for some reason do not give their support. If the good people don't speak up, the bullies win. Especially if it is un-moderated.

Even though they would never admit it, those who graduated after AC became a "University" think that their worthless diplomas are somehow a little more valuable than mine!!

I don't know if I ever told you this, but when I was getting a physical during the application process for AC the doctor asked me what I was going to study. I replied "Theology" and she commented "Oh, I always thought it would be fascinating to study rocks!"

I was wondering something. If you do not believe in the bible or commandments or Jesus or anything like that then are you afraid to do bad things?

Do you think people are punished who do bad things or break commandments? Or doesn't it matter anymore since we're not in the church?

I really want to know. I know it's a dumb question. But you can put it on the site.

I don't see any commandments from God other than what would seem to me to be the natural desire to honor who or whatever created all that we see, and, the natural way for everyone to get along together and that would be to not do anything that was going to harm somebody else. That covers a lot of territory but it makes it a lot simpler to figure out right from wrong and there is nothing thrown in there that is going to support any particular religion as you will find in "The Ten Commandments" in the bible.

I don't see a lot of evidence that bad people are punished by God in this life. If there is another life, maybe we will all get punished then because we are all worthy of some punishment; just differs by degrees. But, what would be the point? The damage that bad people do lives long after they are gone. It would make more sense, if you were going to punish someone, to do it right away so that they would have time to change and wouldn't be able to hurt so many people. I'm sure it would be a small consolation to all the millions of people that Hitler and Pol Pot are responsible for killing to know that these madmen are going to be punished by God. How many millions of times could God punish them to make up for all the damage?

So, no, I don't believe the commandments in the Bible are from God and it isn't necessary for people to keep them as rules but to possibly keep some of them in the spirit because it is a good thing to not harm other people. But you have to act according to your conscience. Develop your own ethics and things you will do and things you will not do. But have well thought out reasons for them. And then be willing to grow and change as you see things differently over the years. You will naturally feel good about yourself if you are nice to people rather than if you are bad to them. So the best course, even for those that do not recognize any God behind the Commandments, would be to be good to others. It pays off in this life and this life may be all that we get.

You have a very interesting site, and I am speaking as one who does believe that there is something rather special about the Holy Bible. In favour of some of your material I have observed that many people are apparently happy to call themselves 'Christians', but by their observable behaviour and actions they demonstrate very clearly that they are liars and hypocrites.

Whether the Bible is 'God's word' or not those who say they accept it as such, and who must therefore believe in the God who inspired the Bible writers, are surely obliged to follow its (or God's) clear instruction. If they do not then their beliefs are worthless and their claims to be 'Christians' are false. In some cases one can have more respect for those who do not believe in God but who are, at least, true to their own beliefs and ideals.

So you carry on your work expose the hypocrites they are neither interested in their God nor in their fellow human beings. They are clearly driven by greed and a desire to gain power over others.

Publish me as a krank if you like if for no other reason than I find the Bible to be a remarkably wise book. Perhaps one day you will meet at least one person whose claim to be a 'Christian' is well-founded.

I don't think you are a "krank" at all. I once believed just as firmly as you do. There is a lot of wisdom in the bible. You have to sift the wheat from the chaff, just like any other book.

So, since nobody is a perfect Christian, what standard of behavior does God set as the minimum for being a Christian? The way I see it: in for a penny, in for a pound.

You see that HWA and his ilk are driven by power and greed, I assume that you really think that the compilers of the Bible were not driven by the same human, self-serving thoughts. Whatever.

Since you believe in the Bible, you must support the God of the Bible which appears to me, by the evidence from the Bible, (See below) to be an Evil God. How is this God any better than Hitler or HWA or any of us, for that matter?

"Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen." -Michel de Montaigne

Is it hardly surprising that given a deity like this, that Bible-believing Christians behave in the way they do?

Where did this come from? Ed told me that he was putting me on his "hate list" little did I suspect he would unleash his dogs on me. To set the record straight, I NEVER accused anyone, other than the author of this slanderous, hate filled web site, of being bitter! And (again) to set the record straight, I don't believe anyone should be treated badly (now that covers a very wide range of sins) but we do have a responsibility to watch out for ourselves. Remember the old saying, "Buyer Beware". This does not give people the right to rip you off, it just means be responsible and watch out for yourself. Don't leave it up to anyone else to make up your mind for you. It seems to me that the people that became "victims" of the "HWA/WWCG scan" (as you would have it be known as) had a mind of their own to begin with they wouldn't be buying this PT garbage either.

My closest friend is a former member of the WWCG, attended AC etc. He was so intent on becoming one of the "elite" Ambassador College-ites that he too became lazy and looked to the men (HWA / GTA) for his salvation. When the faults began to come to the attention of everyone he became disillusioned, not just with the men but he related it to religion and specifically to the WWCG. He is now an atheist and denies the very existence of God and Christ. But let me ask you this, what does HWA, GTA, the WWCG or any other organized of unorganized religious body have to do with God, Christ or faith? NOTHING!

If you haven't figured this out by now then that IS your own fault. I suggest that ALL OF YOU spend your wealth of excess time searching for the TRUTH about the TRUTH instead of spending your time looking to justify your hatred of a long since dead man in order to make your own failures look less glaring! You can call the "PT" rag an attempt to save other people from the hardship you've encountered at the hands of GTA, HWA and the WWCG but let's face it, you people blew it! You put your faith in men, totally forgetting (or never reading) what the bible itself says about that.

Now do something good for yourself, your family and mankind, get off of the internet and pick up the bible, now read it!

Actually, Richard, I long ago moved on to a life outside of the grip of Worldwide Church of God, or any other religious body that seeks to control by means of fear, guilt, etc. (this includes much of so-called Christianity).

I am not bitter, but the information to be attained on the PT site is invaluable as a means of working through various degrees and types of psychological damage that we suffered. I'm sorry if that sounds to you like we're a bunch of losers who can't go on; apparently you have not had to go through similar circumstances. But I left Worldwide Church of God back in '77, and still had to spend years shedding the layers of toxic control that the leaders administered.

Yes, Richard, those of us who voluntarily joined (we'll forget for now the kids who were forced into it by their parents) made our own decisions. None of us will deny that. But you really need to try to understand that we were all looking for a truth that stood out above all the spiels we were being given from all over the place; with me, it was the get-saved-or-you'll-burn-in-hell crap that I heard in fundamentalist churches and meetings.

I was a teenager, and the lure of Armstrongite explanations of prophecy and "why we were born" was alluring. My parents were also coming into the church at the time, so when they started attending, so did I. You see, Richard, I could have just as easily fallen into the poisonous well of regular fundamentalism as I did with Armstrong fundamentalism. Does that make a difference to you? It doesn't to me.

No, Ed did not "turn his dogs" on you. I merely saw your letter on the site, and answered you of my own accord. You see, Richard, we're free thinkers and independent individuals, those of us who read and contribute to PT. We have all sorts of beliefs and ideas, we're in "different places" philosophically. But we all share the experience of Worldwide Church of God, and that's why we "congregate" at the website. We understand each other pretty well, and the opportunity to share with each other helps us to make sense of the crap, and go on in our own separate lives.

Hopefully YOU will get past the anger you seem to feel toward us, and try to understand the value of the "group therapy" we share on Ed's site.

I did try to fall away in style, but the links just didn't work for some reason. Maybe the system is being backed up. I'll try later. Wayne Cole should be added to the list. Although he is selling real estate in Tyler, Texas with his wife, he gave a sermon in Redding, California to the United Church during the Festival there. It was interesting how he undermined the teachings of the old Worldwide Church of God, such as the history of the church, right in front of everyone--including the UCG President to be. He is very subtle, and in a contest of who's telling the truth between Herbert Armstrong and Wayne Cole, I wouldn't bet on the winner.

John Ouvrier's article on alcoholism is the best one yet. GTA came to Seattle, and a deacon took away his booze! The deacon was locally disfellowshipped--but he went to another city nearby and continued his duties as deacon. And who can forget Dale Hampton reading the sad letter from his eight year old daughter about, "I want my daddy back"! Now I did not drink until I came into the Radio Church of God. I remember during the Feast of Tabernacles in either 1974 or 1975 in Squaw Valley, Garner Ted Armstrong, David Jon Hill, and Al Portune got up during the fun show and told "drunk jokes". I have often thought how fitting that was.

"The David Defense" is an excellent article and shows a lot of depth and wisdom. When I went back and reviewed it, I was amazed, although it is a little hard to find by the standard searches. Perhaps you may want to make it more obvious. One of the things that people should consider in "The David Defense" was that Scripture says that David was a man after God's own heart because David did all that God wanted him to do. The problem with Herbert Armstrong is that he failed to do everything he said God wanted him to do; example: Turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children. Thanks to Herbie, the hearts of the children are turned away from the fathers. As a parent, I know the damage he did.

It's always a bit of a shock when the plain truth leaps up and bites you in the face. HWA effectively destroyed orthodox christianity for me, so I never expected anything from them. Until at the end, when I had rejected HWA himself, and had come to the conclusion that the real "body of christ" must be scattered among all denominations (had to be, because certainly no one of them was the 'true church'). At that point I wondered if I had some obligation to fellowship with some of them.

Then I was in correspondence for a time with Linda Stuhlman, of the Worldwide Church of God Exit Network. She was trying to put together an organization to battle all cults, not just this one (too big of a job, in my opinion), and she was talking to Watchman Fellowship and other cult-watchers. When they swallowed the Tkaches whole, Linda was right there shaking her head, crying "no-no-no-no!" But they didn't listen. They didn't believe her. And that's when it hit me--THEY DIDN'T CARE!

The only concern of the cult watchers was that Worldwide Church of God was not like them. And once Joe-joe accepted Sunday and all the rest, we were just like them. That's why they wouldn't listen to Linda. Because they are all cults, too!

As Ken found out, they don't give a shit about your true spiritual problems. They want money. And how dare they condemn some other cult for its activity, because it might be turned back and used against them. Don't look for help there. You won't find it.

And we think we are better than them and superior in character and ethics because we do not pedal God for a price.

We are not pimps for God. That gives us a right to disfellowship them from any respectability in the human race.

I left wcg in 1981,this is when new ministers were being sent in to church areas to replace the existing ministers and to turn gods church around. These new ministers were strict, harsh, taught rules, laws, loyalty, corrections, church services seemed more like a prison than a time to rejoice.

I had a feeling things were not quite right at headquarters, but you could never get any straight answers from most minister, just rumors from members who new someone who new some one s brother in Pasadena.

The one main thing that was missing at Gods church was the one thing that should be abundant at the true church.-LOVE. There was no love from the minister to the sheep, only corrections, and rules. It was very difficult to leave, for fear of losing salvation and I did believe all the teachings, but there was no love there, and who would want to spend time in Petra or eternity with Gestapo type tactics used by uncaring unloving jerks or ministers? It would seem more like hell wouldn't it?

I have often wondered what happened to wcg and felt guilt for leaving, but now, finding out that hwa was doing to his daughter and gta was doing to a lot of women, I feel like a fool for following the church.

Thank god for the internet. Too bad it wasn't out decades ago, then the church would have had a super hard time controlling the sheep. Thanks for listening and the mental help from your web site.

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