Worldwide Church of God: Email: Sweet and Sour, Page TwentyEight

Congratulations for your page. I have entered to this page since a long time and I have read several articles. Now I have been reading with more thoroughness all the articles (that are many).

However, I agree totally with you with regard to what religion, Bible and Christianity are in general.

In 1995 I left Worldwide Church of God here in Mexico (after 15 long years) but the worst thing of everything is that I left it because I was defending Hebert Armstrong's ideas. At the end of 1997 I left UCG and I began a deep study on my beliefs. I should say that Robert Brinsmead's writings motivated me to this study otherwise I believe that I would still continue in some of the "Real Churches of God". I thanked him for this.

Based on the study that I carried out I could understand that we are completely independent human beings and with free thought. We should not allow that anything or anyone neither uses, govern nor control our will.

I have found out many things that happened in Worldwide Church of God, thanks to your page. The only thing that I request you is that you continue publishing this page and perhaps those still on Worldwide Church of God and those which left it read all the material on this page and understand the absurd form in which they are spending their life.

A couple of weeks ago I received a message in Spanish from someone who, I think, wanted to know if The PT was available in Spanish. Had to tell him no.

Brinsmead helped me a lot too. Funny how some people reach a certain level of understanding and then cannot go beyond. I know people who read Brinsmead and even one has a website with Brinsmead's material on it, but they don't really get it. Brinsmead frees you to be able to think for yourself. It doesn't take long before you no longer need Brinsmead.

You are right. There are many people that seeing the ridiculous of their faith refuse to accept the proven truth and, without caring, they continue with their beliefs.

Here in Mexico I have had the opportunity to speak with some people (ex-WCG) and it is incredible to see how they get scared just hearing a different teaching of HWA.

Ed, do not hesitate in contact me if you think that I can help you in some way. I have translated several documents to Spanish for family use. I don't have a lot of free time but I will make all the possible to help you to show people how erroneous they are.

I really feel that God is raising up the Spanish work through you........................

I wouldn't bother you to translate the PT pages. There are too many and how many people would be reached? Did you say that you already have some translated though? I would use them if you already have them done.

I will forward the message that I got from one Spanish speaking person. Maybe you can help them in some way.

I've been reading e-mail posted on your site. You said, in part, to Clara: "I don't see any commandments from God other than what would seem to me to be the natural desire to honor who or whatever created all that we see, and, the natural way for everyone to get along together and that would be to not do anything that was going to harm somebody else." I agree we miss the message.

Our local newspapers have printed numerous letters to editors about Creation and Evolution, so I finally took my swing at the subject. As you will read, I believe a creator has something powerful to work with as he/she/it pleases.

The deeper thinking reader will also consider that I blasted the blaspheme of the Trinity doctrine. CAUTION: I do refer to a couple bible verses:

Creationists need to come to a deeper understanding of the book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 2, the second verse in the Old Testament in that great book, the Holy Bible. Please note: The earth had become void. So God's creation, verse 1, had become without form, void and dark. Then follows the description of the six days of (re)creation. And during the sixth day God created (today's) mankind in his own image, male and female, He created mankind (verse 27).

About 100 years ago mankind created the automobile. Will you agree that the year 2000 models demonstrate man's ability to evolve the automobile? Will you agree that some automobile engineers were, and are, God-fearing people? About 50 years ago mankind created the electronic computer. Will you agree that the year 2000 models demonstrate man's ability to evolve the computer? For many years I was involved in the evolution of computer software. Mankind, in God's own image, is capable of evolving things made of natural resources. How much more could mankind accomplish if he could use one more ingredient--God's Holy Spirit--to give life? Given man's devious mind, let us rejoice that he can not do so!

Evolutionists would do us all a service if they would more clearly show us where science has its limitations, and where an awesome force--God's Holy Spirit--takes over to get the job done. Creationists would do us all a service if they would more clearly show us a better understanding of that awesome force--God's Holy Spirit--that is in all things, because there is nothing on earth, nor in the heavens above, that is totally lifeless. Everything has scientifically measurable life force. Mankind calls it "frequency."

Here in Australia we do not get Hank H. on the radio, so I listened on the internet. The tactics sounded EXACTLY as I remember the Worldwide Church of God. E.g. I listened to about 6 broadcasts and these Armstrong tactics were all used.:

1. Don't answer the question .... just aggressively respond with another question.

2. Present two alternatives as though they are the only alternatives. Put a logical or factual fallacy in one, so the caller is forced to choose the second. No mention is made of any other alternatives (the Worldwide Church of God used this for Saturday vs Sunday very well).

3. "Don't believe me; believe the Bible" (but as I'm head/apostle of CRI I must know more than you).

No wonder the Worldwide Church of God sought solace in his arms .... they were so familiar.

I am monitoring your site since last year; it has been very stressful to discover all these facts, but it is confirmation of some information I already had and many things I had seen. I am now ready to send my resignation letter and say "adios" to the Worldwide Church of God. I am now fully convinced that this church is still evil.

I would like to write an article to share my French experience, but my English is not good enough, it's long and difficult for me; maybe I will write in French and get the text translated into English by someone else.

If you want you can post my message, with my full name and full email address please. Please excuse my faulty English.

Thank you for the site and your hard work; the page index is very useful, and graphics are great !

Hi there, Hope your ready for some painful truth. Nothing personal just an observation.

It's 5:41 am and I have just finished reading your article "My Exit Odyssey". I liked the questions you posed. ".....they made sense but are they true?".

Frankly, Bible disagrees with your interpretation concerning those issues. Why? Simply because you have not taken ALL Scripture into consideration when referring to annual holy days, laws given to love and protect us.

I am not and never have been a member of Worldwide Church of God. But I am greatful that the truth after having been obscured under thick clouds of distortion from many only out for self gain, has finally been made plain to sincere seekers of truth and God fearing (respecting) persons and lover of God's Spiritual moral decalogue as well as the plain and simple truth.. It seems clear with your logic and rationalization to disregard or to do away with God's annual Holy days in scripture among other essential Christian doctrines that 40 years in the Church has been spent in vain. You have fallen so far into apostasy -away from God that you are trying desperately to find excuses to justify YOUR way of life as opposed to God's. Which if you continue in this manner of no moral code, turning grace into a license to sin, WILL only lead you further into sin.. as you know full well that in the New Testament 1 John 3:4 describes sin as breaking the law.

Using the logic you used concerning laws and holy days -as to which of them should be kept -if we do not make a distinction concerning which laws God is referring too in 1 John 3:4 then by all means using your logic 1 john 3:4 is referring to ALL laws and that which ever one you break is SIN. Including sacrificial laws and kosher laws, circumsion laws..etc.. But when we take the ENTIRE Bible into consideration we can make a CLEAR distinction as to what John is referring to now for the New Testament.

However, I will say that I am in agreement with your recent discovery concerning the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tithe. The Worldwide Church of God's tithing system was not known to me until then. And I was astonished to learn that there was 2 other tithes in addition to the ONE made plain in scripture and for the benefit of God's work.

I still believe ONE tithe is needed to support the work of God and the God FEARING men that are commissioned to do His work. Herbert Armstrong was chosen to restore essential doctrines of God to reveal the awesome plan of God.. especailly concerning "developing Holy Characteristic". Remember when all is fulfilled the "new heart" or rather the New Covenant the more effective one will be naturally instilled into BORN AGAIN Christians Think clearly about what you have been taught. And what has been revealed to you in the past concerning Church doctrines in the ambassodor Worldwide Church of God study lessons. Grasp the true significance of the goodnews.

Now Herbert Armstrong was only Human. He made numerous mistakes and had sinned often. I think probably the worse sin I have observed of him would be his Pride. He needed to be alot more humble. But like You and I, he had the chance to repent. And I am certain as he knew the Bible alot better then a hand full of a theologians and could relate it back in plain simple clear terms or what the Bible indicates as "babes" knowledge, even to the extent where he used numerous scriptures to support the need to REPENT.. that he did it often as we are freely able too in God and when sincere at heart are forgiven.

I know you want to be sincere towards worshipping God. I know you struggled thru a lengthly trying time of apostasy. But please dont fall into the error of accepting pagan practices and distorting what has been "miraculously" revealed to you in God from a man that like you and I is capable of sinning and did often even as Pastor General. Remember he was an aged man and I would say that many of the higher levels of members were influencing his decisions with their two lip speaches.

If you would find it in your heart to forgive this man for the pain he has caused your life and family and many others with some of HIS teachings especially the one concerning tithes, no doctor or hospital help and sometimes his not so humble attitude towards other members you will then see the truth of what God was revealed and sealed by the Holy Spirit. He did love God and was sincere.. His intentions were true to his word.. To help others as each time I read the Holy Spirit working in the lessons that he sent out to my dad more then 30 years ago.. I am still moved to tears. He may not have been Elijah. But given the evidence if you are willing to use your power of reason to consider ALL scripture teaching, doctrines, practices and purpose of our being here. You will find that YOU are a MEMBER of God's FIRSTFRUITS. Go back to your roots and teach the truth.. It is revealed in scripture that a man will come back from the fallen away members and will be ONE of the TWO endtime witnesses throughout the tribulation period shortly ahead of us.. God bless you.. May that man be you or a person that you know.

Frankly I am a little at odds as to how I should respond to your letter. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from, so I will try to respond to the letter itself, in sections. You wrote the following:

Well, that creates a problem. If you were never a part of Worldwide Church of God, then we have nothing to talk about. For me to try to relate what it was like would be similar to a soldier trying to explain what combat feels like to a civilian. There simply is no point of reference. You can't empathize, and I can't explain. (I am curious, however, how you become such an expert on church doctrine if you were never a member.)

I see. When did this happen? To Worldwide Church of God? One of its spin-offs? Or to you personally? I always get a little twitchy when someone tells me that truth has been revealed to him/her personally. Makes me wonder if they have any explosives in their underwear.

Which ones did I miss? The one that said Ye shall do this forever, or the one that said I give you a New Covenant? (I might point out that the Jews have been keeping these holy days since the very beginning, and they don't get the same meaning out of them that we did. Why do you suppose that is? After all, we only kept them for about 50 years, the Jews for 4000 years. Seems like they ought to know at least as much about these days as you and I, doesn't it?)

Now you're making judgments about me personally. You are assuming that I live in sin. You don't know if I do or not. The fact is that I live by a very high moral code. I challenge any Worldwider, past present or future, or any member of any of the spin-offs (UCG/GCG/PCG/UGH) to live their lives with as high a moral standard as I do. Any one of them might match me, but none will ever beat me. So right here you owe me an apology.

Anyone who wants to support the church of their choice with donations in any amount will get no argument from me. I only object when such church puts a gun to the member's head and demands that tithe. Because the gun is not loaded. The Bible at no time commands a tithe from the Christian church.

Upon what solid foundation do you base this statement? HWA certainly made this claim about himself, but is that the source of your belief? I also ask you--after HWA restored those essential doctrines to the church, what happened to them? Where are they today? Certainly not in the Worldwide Church of God. The spin-offs fight among themselves like so many cats in heat, so I don't see much hope there. Do you?

Mmmmm. . . . I suppose it could have been pride that caused him to repeately RAPE HIS OWN DAUGHTER for a period of TEN YEARS. I'm sure pride came into play when he deliberately STOLE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS from people who could not afford it. Certainly he was proud of his financial success, and laughed at the people who supported him, calling them "dumb sheep". You see, Maree, HWA not only sinned frequently, but he did it ON PURPOSE! That is what apologists like yourself do not seem to grasp. We're not talking about some poor, misguided, sincere old man who made a few "mistakes". We are talking about a calculating CON MAN, an evil, greedy THIEF who did everything he did ON PURPOSE with no regard whatsoever for the CONSEQUENCES TO HIS VICTIMS.

So you really think he repented? I'm sorry, I don't. I don't think he cared. He knew what he wanted, he went after it, and he got it. He was very proud of that. And he knew that when he died, it would all fall apart, and he didn't care about that, either. Because he had got his, consumed it, enjoyed it, and he wasn't worried about an afterlife anyway. Because he didn't really believe in God. He couldn't have. If he did, then he had to be insane, or he could not have done what he did.

What you call "apostasy" I call freedom. I finally discovered the Plain Truth about Herbert Armstrong.

He was not an aged man when he RAPED HIS DAUGHTER FOR TEN YEARS. He was not an aged man when he developed a false theology that helped him STEAL HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS from innocent people. Nobody ever told Herbert Armstrong what to do (except possibly his wife, Loma, before her death). HWA was "de man", pure and simple. If he was ever deceived (or blackmailed) by those around him, it was only in the very final years. By then, the bulk of the crime had been committed.

You just indicted him yourself. Why are you defending this man? What is he to you? Compare him to the apostles in the Bible (the real apostles. John, James, Matthew, Peter, Barnabas, et. al. With the sole exception of Paul, every one was a man of sterling character. Simple men, yes. Uneducated? Perhaps. But honest. Sincere. Hard working. Devout. No sexual sins. No rape of children (their own or anyone else's). Only Paul had a black mark against him, and that was not an issue of morality. He persecuted the Christians, but he didn't rob them or rape them. Now look at Herbert Armstrong's life. There is simply no comparison. Why would God reveal anything to a degenerate like Herbert?

If I think about it, I am also moved to tears when I think of my own dear, sweet mother burning her eyes out at night reading the literature sent to her by HWA and his cohorts. Not because of the holy spirit working in the lessons, but because my lovely mother wanted so desperately to obey God, and she thought this man had the answer. It moves me to tears of pity for her, and tears of rage for the THIEVES who mentally and emotionally RAPED her for their own financial gain. They took my mother's life away from her, and they didn't do it by accident. It was done deliberately, as part of an ongoing ORGANIZED CRIME.

Me? One of the two witnesses? Sorry, I have important things to do. Besides, Herbert Armstrong is supposed to rise from the dead and carry out that function, isn't he? He would be very pissed off if he found me trying to do the job.

I don't want to treat you lightly. I think you are probably really sincere in everything that you say. And I don't want to make fun of that. But by your own admission you were never a member, apparently never even attended. That gives you absolutely zero credibility in my eyes. If your dad was a member, and you are trying to defend this "faith" as a tribute to his memory, that is understandable. But if that is so, the truth is much more beneficial to all concerned. Like my mother, I'm afraid your dad was the victim of a terrible crime. He was conned like tens of thousands of others. Rather than defend the perpetrators of that crime, your time would be much better spent getting as far away from the teachings of Herbert Armstrong as possible.

Having said all that, I know full well that you reject everything I have just said. So, believe what you want. Just tell me you aren't carrying any explosives in your pocket.

Please don't let the critics get you down. I have a feeling that there is a huge "silent majority", like myself, who deeply appreciate your work. I've read every single article on your site and check it regularly for new items. Can I offer two suggestions, with the caveat that I'm not very internet-literate so I don't know how much work these would take?

First, it would be helpful to people like myself, who've already read all the old items, if there were an index of articles by date order. We could check the most recent listings for articles we haven't yet read.

Second, a valuable addition to your Bibliolatry page would be a link to Dennis McKinsey's page. Dennis is the author of one of the books you recommend, The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy. His web page includes past issues of the Biblical Errancy newsletter, which provide a wealth of information on biblical inconsistencies, errors and absurdities. Also rebuttals to apologists.

Again, please keep up the good work. I thought interest in this site would peter out long ago, however new people keep discovering it and contributing valuable insights. As long as this continues, it is wonderful that someone like yourself is willing to contribute the time and resources to keep updating this site.

Thanks for your message. For some reason, your last name looks familiar, but I can't place it. Are you from the Milwaukee area?

In answer to your first suggestion: I have added on to the dropdown list at the top of the main page, a listing of the latest additions to The PT. I only went back a month or so but will now keep it up to date.

I just wanted to let you know that as a current and nearly lifelong member of Worldwide Church of God I find your Web site very interesting and sometimes humorous. It is obvious that many people have had negative experiences as members of the Worldwide Church of God, but most of the friends I grew up with in the church led pretty normal lives. We had careers, bought houses, got married and had families. And for the most part, tithing didn't seem to cramp our lifestyles too much. We still golfed on weekends, went out to dinner, etc. You know, the whole American Dream thing. We were only weird on Saturday.

Still, your site helps me understand the mindset of those who left with feelings of bitterness. I know you blame HWA (just like I do) but I also get the sense from this site that there is a large amount of anger at the current church administration who made the changes that finally broke the mind control hold the church had some people. I don't understand that.

1. Because of the cover-up of past sins for fear of being sued. They put money before granting true freedom to those they have enslaved in the past.

2. Because of their lack of a sincere repentance. They have no sense of right and wrong. Wouldn't you think that "religious" people would have a little more religion?

3. Because, when they keep the name of the Worldwide Church of God, they willingly keep the history and legacy of evil and corruption, and it is very difficult to respect anybody or, especially, a church that would do something like that. I hold them in contempt.

4. Because they pretend to represent Jesus, but do not try to act as He would. And He would take responsibility for all the evil that this church did in the past and use all its resources to do what He could to repair the damage. They have done NOTHING. They will do NOTHING. They are only in this for THEMSELVES.

5. Because they will take "old money" invested in the properties in Pasadena and Big Sandy, which were purchased with the tithes and offerings of all of us "pre-newfound Christianity Worldwide Church of God members." This was blood money which they sucked out of us by guilt and fear. It was money that we could have been saving for OUR retirements, putting OURselves or OUR children through college, buying houses, etc. Instead, this old money will go to the retirement funds of those non-ministers who can stick it out and suck up to the present Worldwide Church long enough to partake of this golden nest-egg that we laid for them. Tkach will also use this money to finance his "Plain Truth Ministries," a separate entity from the Worldwide Church of God, after he finally disbands the present Worldwide Church of God, when it is no longer profitable to him. I am sure his present staff of salesmen, er... ministers, are very worried about how many of them will be left when that day comes. Especially since they never know which of them will be the next to have to go and get an honest job and actually have to work for a living. And, with only their AC or AU education, they are certainly not prepared for any jobs in the real world. I'll bet the infighting and brownnosing is vicious.

6.What is the point of proselytizing to try to get new church members when you have such a big debt of pain and sorrow and destruction that you will never be able to pay off? What credibility could you possibly have? The new Worldwide Church of God motto: "We are not as bad as we used to be, so come worship with us."

7. Because they are not only un-Christ-like, they are un-godly. And they call themselves a church! They are a joke; a bad joke. If there is a God, they will pay for their greed and their evil, still done in His name.

8. Because we see through this legal con-game and we care about the affect it has on people's lives. We care more about people than these con-non-ministers.

I was wondering if I was the only one who had a screwed up life because of Worldwide Church of God and realized it. In at 5 out at 21, I lost 16 years of my life. Took me 6 years to get over it. I lost and missed a lot. But I did not lose the vision that all men "in the world" can not all be bad, as I was taught since my youth.

I went to the "MIGHTY" SEP Orr and made the error of my life. I let down a girl from NC that needed me and I needed her. But no, my brainwashed mind was just able to hurt her. If she reads this I am so sorry to have been so blindfolded. Hint, Hint, Hint Dorm 3b, green M&M, crispy.

I read the comments of the page "You might have grown up in the Worldwide Church of God, if... and laughed and cried. It is so like what I lived. But I believe, if you are as I am, you keep a good distance from what is related to the church. From where I come from, we call it Boud. It relates to a school expression of a minor cult group that kids where calling "Boudhas" = Boud.

I never thought to find some organized site about what we lived, missed and suffered. I am a grown man now and I feel incomplete since I missed part of my life. I did not live my childhood, teen, and early 20's.

I will give more insights on some concentration bible camp I was to attend when I was in YOU (Young Outlaws United) as I liked to call it. That is where I got my nickname, I "know" but I don't "believe" ( Apostasian, apostasic).

I am in a position to make choices now and I have to admit that I have to resist taking revenge on those bastards who took advantage on our trustful parents and, by the same means, us, the children. There are "the children of the corn" and also the children of the WWCG. Taking advantage of people who are feeling lost is very bad. The leaders were just a bunch of power seeking people. That is not an excuse for the acts of abuse of power they have made. I will remember.

I made it by myself, college, university, ..... There is no act of god in there. I hate people who are taking credit for what people do and try to transfer it to a celestial power. You make it on your own, good or bad.

Your contributions to this page are more than welcome. If you don't appear to give me permission, I will not publish your full name.
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